Nutmeg Coin

Clearly the high end ones like Bill Jones displayed go for more than the average ones: http://coins.ha.com/itm/high-relief-double-eagles/double-eagles/1907-20-high-relief-wire-rim-ms64-pcgs/a/1219-5473.s

I ran into a collector who was crowing about having bought an MS64 HR for around $25K. But on Heritage Auctions they go for that and less every week.

Thanks for the research.

I sent it to them and got it back this week from NGC, attribution was:

(1779-80) RB ITALY VENICE PAOLUCCI-14 GOLD 1/4DUC XF DETAILS PLUGGED

I had a chance to scan the images of the coin:

http://i.imgur.com/LzcSmWy.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/ALBZtYe.jpg

A dealer at a show had this Venetian states gold ducat coin originally sold at the 1947 ANA convention auction in Buffalo, NY. Lot #388. He said that the ANA in CO sent him additional details on the coin. Ancient coins expert Allen Berman was at the coin show and I walked the coin over to him and he seemed very interested in it but needed proof, records etc. as there are enough copies floating around to discourage buyers without absolute proof.

The additional description on the coin the dealer provided was "Renier Qvar Ducato Mint RB "Double Ducat". Italian States. Venice. Paolo Renier 1779-1780. Initials R.B. denote mint inspector Raimondo Bembo. Choice very fine as originally described".

Does anyone know the significance of this gold coin and why it is worth strong money?

There is a guest commentary this week in the online edition of Coin World by Don Kagin responding to Dr. Ute Wartenberg's piece. Some good factual points. Page 14. http://digital.olivesoftware.com/Olive/ODE/CoinWorld/

There is a good editorial from ANS Director on the law regarding hoards in CW:

"Gold always captures people’s imaginations. So when a huge hoard of U.S. gold coins, found in California, was announced recently, coin collectors, journalists and the public at large were fascinated by the story.

"Walking their dog, a couple found on their property a treasure of over 1,400 coins, valued at $10 million. The hoard contains great numismatic rarities, most in Mint condition, and is likely to be this country’s most important coin hoard ever. More details emerged about the circumstances of the find, in a story carefully orchestrated by a public relations firm and a California coin dealer.

"Despite the desire to remain anonymous, the couple, now known as Mary and John, described how they found the first of several cans of coins, which they carried home only to find a gold treasure. Eventually, coin experts were consulted and an agreement with Amazon reached, where most of the coins will be sold. Mary and John describe themselves as having had, just “like a lot of people lately,” financial trials. Their find will allow them to keep the property where they have lived for many years as well as donate some money to charity.

"A wonderful story with a happy ending, but is it really? When I read almost weekly discussions about looted antiquities from Mediterranean countries, I wonder why the same standards of archaeological scholarship are not applied to finds in the United States. In the case of this new find, numismatic scholars neither know anything about the exact find spot (“northern California”) nor the surrounding terrain. Not even the various coin varieties represented in this hoard are clear, as only a tiny selection of rarities has been publicized. The entire find is unlikely to get any full publication, if nobody assembles a complete record and makes it available to the public.

"Having worked for over 20 years reconstructing coin hoards largely illicitly excavated in countries such as Greece, Turkey, or Egypt, which often appear in comparable circumstances on the coin market as this new U.S. hoard, I see clear parallels in the attitude to such archaeological finds in the United States and abroad. Foremost, they are treasure, which the finders guard, often in contravention of national or international laws, in order to maximize their financial profit. Rumors about discoveries emphasize the remote areas of find spots, the poverty of the finder, and the need for secrecy. Just as in the California hoard story, the archaeological context is of very little interest, and thus the loss of historical knowledge is considerable.

"When one considers the various legal issues, claims from potential title holders, tax issues, and general privacy concerns, it is not surprising to see that the finders of the Saddle Ridge Hoard have been overly secretive. Sadly, much historical information is lost when such important archaeological finds — and this hoard is most certainly in this category — are not properly recorded and published.

"People often ask why this archaeological context matters, in particular for objects such as these late 19th century gold coins. Quite simply, it can tell the story of objects such as the Saddle Ridge Hoard. It might answer questions that are now at the center of the debate: Who buried the hoard? When did they bury this impressive sum of money? And what caused them to hide these coins and from whom?

"When more such hoards are properly recorded, patterns can emerge to tell us something about the history of the area in which these burials occurred. The coins themselves, once cleaned, look no different from any other California gold coins: it is rather the circumstances of their burial that are so interesting.

"As long as we do not show more interest in local history, knowledge will be lost. In countries such as the United Kingdom, similar hoard finds have been treated differently. The old law of Treasure Trove has been modernized to encourage proper reporting of finds. This might serve as a model for the United States. How much can be gained from an open and public investigation is clearly shown by the case of a different find of U.S. gold coins, this one in London’s Borough of Hackney in 2007. Finders discovered a hoard of 80 U.S. gold double eagle coins in a garden, which they declared to the English authorities. After some research and an inquest, the son of the original owner, a Jewish refugee from Nazi Germany, was located and the hoard declared his property.

"One can only wonder what information might become available if a similar process were applied to the Saddle Ridge Hoard. For now, the finders and coin dealers benefit from this situation, but not the general public or the descendants of the person who owned and buried the hoard over a century ago."

http://www.coinworld.com/voices/Saddle-Ridge-Hoard-US-archaeological-scholarship-lags.html#

Do you agree or disagree that US hoard law lags behind the law in Europe?

That's a nice better date s mint $20.

I recently sold a 97-S $20 a grade down that was high end in my opinion:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/251185982937?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1562.l2649

I paid $1900 for the coin raw; after certification and the ebay/pay pal fees not a lot of profit.

This list needs to be re-checked. I know New Hampshire doesn't charge vs. Vermont; it is one of the reasons so much business has gone to the former state.

On those who think unregulated cash sales are great, I have a six letter name for them: Tom Noe. I was speaking with one of the industry leaders who remembers that jerk with literal bricks of $100 bills for his "investment" company at coin shows. He royally boluxed up the coin businesses in Ohio and was singularly responsible for their Draconian laws. There are levels of compliance that anyone who has done six or seven figures a year is aware should be followed.

A way around paying sales taxes by any significant investor is to file with his town and state as a business, get a sales and use tax license, then fill out the paperwork relevant to that business in states where he/she expects to do business. It will prevent a lot of potential aggravation. I have not had an accountant or tax professional fill me in on the process, it seems that a lot more money gets made by the tax workers if the problem gets caught years after the law non-compliance.

I give up. Nevermind.

 

I actually agree with you. While one could use it as an opportunity to not pay sales taxes, there are many legitimate reasons for wanting to deal with cash and it is too speculative to assume that a dealer has malevolent intent.

ill agree with that.

If you have a sales and use tax permit, you are usually exempt. It is important that numismatic organizations inform their members of what the law is so they don't run into trouble. ICTA does this, but I have never seen an article in a numismatic publication dealing specifically with sales and use tax laws and how you can get into compliance.

Nut meg do you buy or sell on ebay?

 

If so can you please pm me your ebay ID

 

Thanks, Jim

Why do you ask, Jim?

The government agencies know which types of transactions help make their jobs easier interdict real fraud and which are irrelevant. It is ironic when honest people are buying and selling collectibles with cash or cash equivalents and then being taxed on pre-1933 coins and currency as if they were not money. I am not an expert on how and why law enforcement operates, others here most likely are. Often when I do a cash transaction I note who I did business with on the online banking site. Whether the bank or government workers look through these records, I don't know. Any lawyer will tell you that the more in the way of records you have, the better it is for your financial and tax issues. Even with cash transactions there are reporting requirements, 8300 forms, etc., above certain levels.

On my second paragraph, the current state and local laws have perhaps been too hastily enacted and enforced in a scattershot manner. But holding periods on buying and selling by precious metals and coin dealers is not something that anyone who tries to make an honest living in this business wants to see done, but these laws have come about as a reaction to hundreds if not thousands of citizens demanding their governments take action.

I spoke with the state of Vermont, tax department and they filled me in on the obligations on sales taxes for VT businesses. They said 6% on sales in the town where transaction occurred is the law; if dealers with sales and tax use permits want to avoid the %s all they have to do is file with the state, no charge or fee, big deal.

A real concern for many dealers in New England are the increasing regulations, especially the one week hold period on transactions which applies to all business activity of a certain type, this is mainly aimed at the hotel and pawn shop buyers, in certain towns/cities. Most coin dealers I spoke to said this would drive them out of business or make it very difficult to buy and sell precious metals. Have they contacted their state government? I have yet to hear of one who has been lobbying state government to present common sense legislation where they can examine all transactions and record them in ways that the government will be able to fight real fraud.

Bluesheet can be used to intimidate the unwary but it is indicative of sight unseen as is explained in every issue as well as last trades and certain types of markets. Have I ever bought using Bluesheet to intimidate a seller? Absolutely not! Have I been intimidated into selling at BS levels? Yes!

On the tax issue a tax lawyer from PA had this to say on the swap issue:

"The rules for sales tax vary by state, but the "swap" would definitely be considered a sale subject to sales tax in Pennsylvania regardless of whether the consideration was cash, check, credit, or a numismatic coin.

"61 Pa.Code § 33.1 includes the following definition:

"Purchase price—The total value of anything paid or delivered or promised to be paid or delivered, whether it be money or otherwise, in consideration of a sale at retail or purchase at retail not including a rental or license to use."

Maine does not have a tax on collectibles based on dealers I have transacted with in that state. Cash only = unaccountable to government agencies. This should bother everyone who believes in transparency and accountability to one another and to government. If people are running from government then they need to live in the cash economy, but doing so creates many psychological burdens and limits their ability to do significant transactions. Since this is an NGC site, I would think that they will respect privacy up to a point, but if they see a pattern of questionable conduct, doctoring, money laundering, evasion, etc., they may be required to report it to the relevant agency. As a member of NACA and other numismatic organizations, I am required to report unethical conduct to those who are tasked with that duty.

He said that there is no minimum in Vermont on sales taxes, everything is hit. I think he's wrong. Plus I have a sales and use tax permit so should be exempt. I emailed the state tax department and hope to get clarity from them.

I didn't say no on the sales tax, I'm not averse to that, but I have dealt with dealers in New Hampshire, Vermont, CT, MA, and Maine, and none of them have charged sales tax. We did not discuss that.

I was at a brick and mortar shop the other day. He would not take a check, it was well under $2000 no matter what documentation I might provide, dealer numbers, business license number, etc.. Then I said I could pay cash and he said he would have to charge me state sales tax if I paid with cash. Finally I said I had a standard one ounce gold coin and he said that would work fine, he wouldn't have to charge sales tax. Does anyone know if this is legal for him to operate like this?

Here is the certification number for a piece that I had success with through NCS recently: 3624279-001. With the image tool it is easy to bring up the image now.

I bought the 1917 25c coin from Robert Charles as MS63FH for just over $300. It took a little over a month for NCS to conserve it. It graded MS64+FH. PCGS had no graded it as questionable toning....