Hard Times

I'll see if there is a nice dupe I can let go.

 

Wondercoin

Dupes are normally '2nds' and not the highest quality in the set. My years of experience with physics is that he wants the top quality, not next to top. He is also one of the top graders not hired to grade professionally (he wrote a book on it), so he will have a critical eye - I showed him a stunner at the last FUN show with a 'hidden' and subtle mark and within 10 seconds of a full perusal of the coin he was able to point it out, where the majority would have missed it......... So you might want to offer him your top examples instead.

Best, HT

If you can get a green bean on it, then the ceiling is significantly higher.

 

Best, HT

 

Be very hard for that to happen as, if one knows CAC or bothers to look at their website...."Ten Cents (Dimes) 1796-1945 " is what they do.

 

No dimes after 1945 (ie...all Roosevelts)......

 

Now, one could go and try to QA it, but not sure what that would add....

 

I think HT's post was sarcasm.

Actually it was not. It had escaped me that CAC does not do post 1945 since I never had had coins of that type to submit, so I had not bothered to read what they don't bean. Given that I have submitted over 100 to CAC and learned a heck of alot, I was thinkin' 'now what would JA think, it would add alot of credibility to the grade if it got the bean'. But Bochi is correct, and we will never know...

Best, HT

Someone find another overgraded coin. This was fun.

I don't know if this one is overgraded despite any posts I have made, in this market grading era it might be right on for the grade - we heard many opinions on this - but yes, discussing issues of grading, even when emotional as this thread sometimes was, is an excellent way to learn. I learned huge amounts about market grading moderns in this thread, and some of the history of high end graded Roosevelt's. I don't understand why folks want to take these things personally, but nevertheless I agree, this was fun, let's try another.

Best, HT

"I still think the comparison is way off."

 

I guess we'll let the Roosie collectors determine if the comparison is "way off" or not. If my customer's dime fetches $300 or $400 in the no reserve auction, then perhaps the comparison was on point. If the coin fetches thousands upon thousands of dollars, then we know the comparison was, indeed, "way off".

 

Wondercoin

I think that is way too low, I am thinking $7K in this current market. If you can get a green bean on it, then the ceiling is significantly higher. There is no question about the obverse being stellar and that makes the coin.

Best, HT

"I have my own personal list of 'finest representatives' on the NGC boards"

 

I became a member here in 2002, not last week. In (14) years, you might be surprised what I can pick up on from talk on the street, across the street, etc. I don't need to be here on a daily basis to form an opinion on who the finest here might be.

 

Wondercoin

53 posts in 14 years as of 6:15 pm CT on 5/17/16. While anyone can form an opinion on anything at anytime, it seems to me that active participation provides perhaps a stronger mechanism to gain that opinion than does 'talk' from afar. You would be surprised on what you would pick up here on a daily basis to form an opinion if you actively participated.

I am not disagreeing with Mark being an upstanding numismatist who can do a great job evaluating coins, we all know that. What I am disagreeing with your post is that anyone can be called the 'finest representative of these NGC boards'. It alienates everyone else here by making a decree like that............. so that is the point and why I called you out on your words.

Best, HT

Paul. Thank you for that post.

 

First, you correctly pointed out that I intentionally selected THE finest representative of these NGC Boards (as far as I know) to assist Board Members here who truly wanted to understand the grade of this dime. " Impeccable reputation" could be a slight understatement in Mark's case.

You don't participate on these boards except in this one case to defend a coin that many are taking issue on with the respect for quality for the grade, so it seems strange to me to make such a grand proclamation. You can of course select who you want, but tone down the over-hyped superlatives IMHO.

There are plenty of folks here who have impeccable reputations and are just as good at grading as Mark. This is not to slight Mark, but I believe you have slighted the others in your statement above, which you would have known if you spent time here on these boards. I have my own personal list of 'finest representatives' on the NGC boards but am not about to follow your lead and make such a grand proclamation. Some are collectors, some are dealers.......

I have read the last few days of posts in this thread with great interest. Wondercoin has been asked several times now about the 'marks' on the torch.With great eloquence of prose, wondercoin has steered around, misdirected, or simply avoided requests for him to comment on the marks on the torch. Yet this whole thread, is about the marks of the torch and whether that warrants the grade provided by the TPG which sets a market value for the coin. Very entertaining stuff!

 

Best, HT

 

That sounds harsh and unfair to me.

 

His post which preceded yours, reads, in part:

 

"That said, when I look at the dime again more closely in the next month, I will pay closer attention to the one focal area that seems to be the focus of this discussion. And, I have already said that I would be happy to discuss my findings with anyone seriously interested in the coin in good faith. Nothing more I can do."

 

And in another post the wrote:

",...I made it clear that once I have the coin in my hands again (having seen it for a couple minutes over the past few years at this point) I will be happy to carefully look at the reverse of the coin again and speak to anyone interested in purchasing the coin as well. My email was provided above."

 

There might be others, too, but I think the above two quotes make my point.

Mark,

Neither of these two quotes specifically address the questions posed for the marks. What is unfair? Anyone looking at the pictures on ebay can clearly see them, the dealer doesn't have to retrieve it to see the marks.

Best, HT

I have read the last few days of posts in this thread with great interest. Wondercoin has been asked several times now about the 'marks' on the torch.With great eloquence of prose, wondercoin has steered around, misdirected, or simply avoided requests for him to comment on the marks on the torch. Yet this whole thread, is about the marks of the torch and whether that warrants the grade provided by the TPG which sets a market value for the coin. Very entertaining stuff!

Best, HT

Interesting, so are the marks on the torch for the Roosevelt dime we are discussing tumbling marks? Is there flow lines that one can observe? Do such flow lines show up on devices? If not tumbling marks if there is an absence of flow lines, then what would be the origin of these marks?

 

Best, HT

 

This is IMO the reason this photo became such a heated discussion because in a photo these marks look beyond ugly/distracting/ annoying/etc...they look similar to true dings/hits/post mint marks.... I get that.

What I've been trying to explain is that they look no where near as dramatic or noticeable under light, when rolling and tilting the coin during a grading process.. reason for that is because the luster flows through them, and cruises right over top of them opposed to actual hits where luster actually highlights and points out said flaws (that is why we roll and tilt under light in the first place). To find flaws. These types of marks are virtually unnoticeable under light, unless u r looking for and trying to find them.

 

Those are some good points. To credit them further, I have noticed that some types of blemishes (for example dark spots, some types of surface dings), come out to be much more worse in images compared to viewing them in hand. I guess that is why the old adage - see the coin in hand to judge it, still is crucial. Perhaps in this case for this 64-D dime, such is the case.

Best, HT

Interesting, so are the marks on the torch for the Roosevelt dime we are discussing tumbling marks? Are there flow lines that one can observe? Do such flow lines show up on devices? If not tumbling marks if there is an absence of flow lines, then what would be the origin of these marks?

Best, HT

 

 

PCGS MS 64

 

 

Gorgeous dime.

Gorgeous is an understatement..........

Here is a newp, bought off ebay with atrocious images, took a chance. I am satisfied with this coin in hand.

Best, HT

Be that as it may, tumbling, bumbling, mumbling marks or whatever. Thems serious gouges on a common coin with 10s of millions extant. Why would anyone pay $10K for it beyond me. If graders have the capability to know how each mark on a coin is made, and then grade high if tumbled marks, low if post made marks, well then, they must be psychic.........

 

Best, HT

 

You don't' think graders (or for that matters, non-graders familiar with such coins) can tell the difference between mint-made marks and post-mint flaws? I think in most cases they can. That said, while I might be in the minority, I don't think either type of flaws should get free passes with respect to grading.

Mark,

Probably most of the time the best graders in the grading room are right about how marks are made that they are observing. But we can't possibly know how each mark is obtained, no chance. It might look like something made by some kind of process, but we weren't there to witness the creation - just like toning as Brandon notes above. So it is simply subjective opinion, like anything to do with grading. I think it comes down to whether one believes marks like that are something they would like on a 68 or not. But like jom says, and I was trying to say, $10K for a common coin when one almost as good is $100? I think that is why we are all discussin' this.....

Best, HT

Be that as it may, tumbling, bumbling, mumbling marks or whatever. Thems serious gouges on a common coin with 10s of millions extant. Why would anyone pay $10K for it beyond me. If graders have the capability to know how each mark on a coin is made, and then grade high if tumbled marks, low if post made marks, well then, they must be psychic.........

Best, HT

Likely have never seen high end coins if you live in the auction world. My point is that finest known 64-D Roosevelt that started this thread would never be in a dealer possession because they could not sell it in good faith. For sure there is problem free mark free dimes better than that in some ones collection. Don't assume that because PCGS hasn't graded one in 68FT that they aren't available. I know people who have pristine unc. rolls of this stuff. If this coin actually fetches 10k then the next few to surface will pull that price down so fast you will go what the........

 

I'm not certain that I understand your above post, but there are certainly plenty of high ends coins in the auction world. In fact, many of the best coins that end up in the finest collections are obtained through auctions.

 

And contrary to what you said, the 1964-D dime that started this thread apparently IS in a dealer's possession. I have participated in and/or heard about numerous transactions with that dealer, and have always known him to act honorably. Just because a few (or even many) observers believe a coin is over-graded, doesn't mean that it can't be sold in good faith.

 

Absolutely, and I hope that my comments were not construed to suggest otherwise. My problem/dislike is with the coin and not Mitch (a/k/a wondercoin). Mitch has described a certified coin and included images that plainly show the issues that I dislike so it is all out there for the buyer to see and make his or her own determination. It is up to a potential buyer to decide what the coin is worth to him or her.

No mention of the green goo on the reverse or the notches taken out of the bands and torch in the ebay listing description - so none of the detractions are mentioned.... ......

But at least the images are very good so the buyer can seal their own fate if they choose.

As they say - Caveat Emptor.

Best, HT

I will be the first to admit I don't collect coins of this era in such uber grades. I don't find it reasonable to spend $10K on an uber grade for a very common coin - for that much money, one could instead, for example (of many), get a Dahlonega half eagle in AU where only 50 or so are extant and you get alot more history for the buck. ..

AH all of the images you show have lots of post strike damage, no question about that. Whether it happened in the mint or later, they are still there. One could argue that they are in the planchets that don't get struck up but then this would imply that planchet preparation was not so great or there were striking issues in that era - doubt this is true. So doesn't matter where all of these hits came from, they are hits and strongly detract in all of the images you show and the 68 OP roosevelt dime.

Apparently these marks are acceptable on uber grades for these series according to both NGC and PCGS grading standards as you show with your images. Yikes. If I buy anything at 65 or higher, I sure don't want a coin with so many detracting marks. Especially if they are common coins from that era. I would rather collect 64-65 and pick ones with few marks and cost little. That is just me and what I like. Here is an example below of a 65 from that era that I own and paid $50 for - it has marks, but more than those you show in uber grades? Maybe. No worries, I can buy 200 of these for $10K.

HST, it seems there must be a heck of alot of grade inflation in these series - I guess some coins get resubmitted again and again until they finally make uber grade - If you pay $50 for a coin and a grade bump or two is $10K, you can try 10-20 times and still make a killing. JMHO, that Roosevelt in 68 with damaged torch might have been resubmitted many times(?) to make that grade....

Best, HT

What I see is an overgraded coin, plain and simple.

From the PCGS website:

MS/PR-68 Virtually as struck with slight imperfections, slightest weakness of strike allowed

I see more than slight imperfections in those gouges that reside in a prime focal area. 65 at best IMHO. Not even close using PCGS Photograde online resource to a 66 let alone 68. Give it a + for eye appeal but that is all. Someone is going to be buried in that coin if they pay that kind of coin for it.

Best, HT

Classic example of grade the submitter, not the coin.

 

Really? So, you know WHO submitted the coin?

Are you assuming Wondercoin originally submitted it? If you are, I would wager some significant funds that you are wrong.

 

No one implied that. Given the pedigree, I would assume wondercoin purchased it out of the Just Having Fun collection? Is Just Having Fun the same person as wondercoin?? Don't get your britches all in a bunch Bochi.

 

 

Ignorance here abounds.

 

JHF was well known for many of the series/coins he collected that were the top of the top. Many of the sources of those coins, particularly Roosies, were known as well.

 

It has also been known that Wondercoins has been his agent at selling them.

 

And, yes, it was basically implied that Wondercoins was the submitter.

 

So, in short, because I have your alias on the PCGS boards ignored, but not here yet, the answer to your question if Wondercoins and JustHavingFun are the same person, is NO. Wondercoins has always been an upfront person and not hiding behind any other persona.

 

That shouldn't have even been a real question to ask, but since it was, I will answer it.

 

Rather than think that someone is trying to pull something, hide something, or get something over on another, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt when I see things being sold; story or no.

In this case, enough people that were around, and paying attention, on the PCGS boards some years back, would know the JHF story and coins.

 

All bow down to the great and all-knowing Bochiman.

 

1) I never implied nor stated that wondercoin was shady or doing anything wrong. I'm well aware of who he is, and his position in dealing and marketing ultra high grade ultra moderns. Much of that I find to be smoke and mirrors, but I have always found wondercoin as a dealer to be upstanding and honest on the PCGS boards. You, on the other hand, are like a toddler.

 

2) Please do block/ignore me here. I have had you on ignore for years, but I still like to "unmask" your complaining posts on occasion for S&G. You never let me down. Though, it is pretty humorous how you only show up here when you have to defend the honor of someone from ATS.

 

Really nice example yarm!

Best, HT

Shipwreck gold. From the SS Republic.

 

gp now that is a nice piece of history!

Best, HT

Scottish Copper

After several years, I think I have chose a new direction. These found me at the last Fun Show. Todd (BluCC Photo) took the images.

 

Larry those are all stunners, I remember one of them at FUN but not the other 3! Congrats on this move to bust halves, your eye is good at selecting them.

Best, HT

Please don't laugh at the holder.

Todd took this great image.

Nice Larry!