To Those of You Who Feel Jadecoin was Wronged by PCGS....

[dragon]

Just curious, to those of you who believe that Jadecoin was wronged by PCGS and is entitled to some compensation, what do you think he is owed? I have read all the opinions on this subject and really have no strong opinion either way, but I'm curious what you think, do you feel Jadecoin is owed:

 

1) A full reimbursement for his original purchase price?

 

2) A partial reimbursement based on the market value of a Norweb pedigree?

 

3) The difference between what Jadecoin paid for the coin and its current market value as it stands now?

 

4) A full reimbursement based on PCGS's 'market value' for that coin with the pedigree?

 

5) Or something else?

 

 

dragon

[Leothelion]

Is this a poll being taken? Of course, many extensive opinions can be located in the last thread. Whether DH or Jadecoin thought the other was responsible to educate the other in this matter, there may be a difference of value due to the labeling change on the slab. The recourse for compensation can take several avenues. One might be, placeing the coin back on the market and then go from there.

 

Leo

[dakra]

Jade deserves a refund for the difference between the pedigree and non-pedigree price.

 

PCGS should start adding notes on their presidential review and not leave the submitter wondering.

 

-Dave

[SilverEagleCoins]

Found this on the PCGS website

 

"PCGS Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity

 

Customer Bill of Rights

The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. The cash-back policy ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PCGS coin as long as it remains in its tamper-evident holder. If a coin is believed to be improperly graded, and a discrepancy is found when resubmitted through PCGS's Guarantee Resubmission service, the guarantee entitles the coin's owner to options designed for his protection."

 

The last sentence does say the coin's owner has some options but does not list those options.

 

Don't forget that paying jadecoin would not be the end of it. He was not the only one to buy this pedigree coin. Every person who bought the coin after it was reviewed could be entitled to damages since they all paid a price based on that pedigree. The damages to PCGS could be considerable.

 

[Chippewa]

I think the difference between price paid with Pedigree and FMV without is fair in the circumstances. Others in the chain of ownership would not be entitled to compensation since they bought and sold the coin without finding the problem and probably all made money on the coin.

 

PCGS and NGC could protect themselves easily on Pedigree issues. When slabbing a coin with Pedigree they should simply record in the grading record whether they are relying on another slab (on a crossover or regrade), a catalog or some other evidence. They should then make a copy of the evidence for their records and disclose in their published quarantee policy what constitutes acceptable evidence of a Pedigree. If this procedure costs more money, they could just charge extra for Pedigree designations.

[MikeKing]

I agree fully with Chippewa.

 

Where does this stituation stand now? I looked back at the threads and it would take days to go through all of this.

 

My senses are becoming more repulsed regarding PCGS, I must say.

 

Indeed, I just sent a whole bunch of PCGS graded coins over to NGC for crossover.

 

So I began to wonder...what would happen if I ended up feeling towards NGC how I now feel about PCGS? Do I go to ICG (sp?), no!....THEN I will have an excuse to crack all of my coins out of their holders!!!!

 

 

[darktone]

#3 is the way I would like to see it handled if it was my coin. I think PCGS might make an example out of Jade for posting this in public and twisting their arm so to speak and not give him nothing. I think if I was Jadecoin I would have exhausted all means to handle this in private first even if it meant getting an attourney first. mike

[Leothelion]

Just what I thought....a continuence of the last thread. Now I would like everyone in this thread to copy and post (in an orderly fashion starting with you dragon) to the original truthteller's thread and then return here and delete your posts and this thread!

 

Leo

[Oldtrader3]

I am inclined to vote for #3. Although #2 works also. I wonder what PCGS will do when faced with the negative publicity that this incident has generated.

[gmarguli]

At the very least PCGS should pay the value lost due to their error. That would be the price Jade paid for the coin minus the price the coin could be wholesaled for today. If they paid $3500 for the coin and it can be wholesaled for $2000 today, then cut them a check for $1500.

[crito]

" If they paid $3500 for the coin and it can be wholesaled for $2000 today, then cut them a check for $1500."

 

They should have done that when the coin was returned with the pedigree removed. That would have been the end of it. At this point, though, I don't know. TDN keeps accusing jadecoin of doing something wrong; who knows how much business they've lost as a result. Maybe a court should decide.

 

 

[BushMan]

They should have done that when the coin was returned with the pedigree removed

 

Absolutely! Though that would have required a lack of arrogance, attention to detail and thorough, quality customer service. HisRoyalHighness has no idea how that works!

 

PCGS should reimburse the difference in value.

 

Hey Greg, something tells me that if you were still posting "over there", you would get banned over an issue like this one!

[coinman1794]

There is no question in my mind that, if PCGS changed their opinion about a coin, thus changing the label, they need to pay the difference in value as a result of that change, regardless of what the coin is. It's that simple.

 

[chrisfuccione]

I don't go over there that much. What happened? CHRIS

[gmarguli]

I don't go over there that much. What happened? CHRIS

 

Jadecoin purchased a colonial coin at $3500 for a customer who only wanted a Norweb pedigreed coin. This coin was in a PCGS slab as MS64RD with the Norweb pedigree. A similar coin without the pedigree is worth about $2000. The customer buys the coin and can't find it in the catalog and returns it to Jadecoin. Jadecoin tries to find it in the catalog and can't. Jadecoin takes the coin to David Hall and explains he can't find the coin in the Norweb catalog and DH does a "presidential review" of the coin. The coin is returned later in a new slab without the Norweb pedigree. There is no note explaining what happened and no check for the value of the pedigree.

 

Jadecoin posts his experience on the PCGS forums asking for help. Lots of people respond with suggestions. David Hall responds that Jadecoin is all wrong, isn't truthful about the facts, that the people commenting don't know [!@#%^&^], etc. Basically the typical David Hall defense mode when confronted shirking the guarantee or being proven wrong.

 

That's the last I read on it. Jadecoin now has a coin without the pedigree worth a LOT less and David Hall and PCGS are refusing to honor their guarantee once again.

 

The only other possibility is that the coin is a Norweb coin, but was sold as an AU coin and PCGS overgraded the coin a dozen or so points as MS64RD.

 

PCGS has offered no help in proving it is a Norweb coin.

 

 

[Dry]

"The coin is returned later in a new slab without the Norweb pedigree. There is no note explaining what happened and no check for the value of the pedigree."

 

That is outrageous! Thats pretty much saying kiss my .

[Tradedollarnut]

Same version with a slightly different spin:

 

Jadecoin is looking for Norweb pedigreed coins. He finds this Hibernia which he doesn't like - thinks it's overgraded [yeah, I know - never happens with an NGC coin, does it?] and also he thinks it's too expensive. His customer buys it anyway because he's really into Norweb. A month later, his really big customer decides to return the coin because it's not one of the 13 plated coins out of 91 Norweb coins. Jadecoin freaks because he can't say no to his big customer, but he also knows that he's stuck with a dog and he can't return it to the seller after a month. He goes to HRH at a show and says "this coin is not Norweb, it shouldn't have the pedigree" not saying anything about whether or not he wants to be paid for the difference and not saying anything about the fact he thinks it's overgraded. The coin is written up for pedigree review, some minion at PCGS looks in the catalog [the plates really suck - I have serious doubts that it could be said one way or another that a coin is or isn't a Norweb plated coin off those plates] and agrees that he can't match a coin to a plate and so he orders the coin returned without the pedigree - after all, that's what the customer wanted. Jadecoin gets the coin back and calls PCGS saying why did you return the coin with no check? PCGS says a check for what? Hey wait a minute, you didn't say you wanted money for us to take off the pedigree, there are 78 other Norweb coins in that catalog and we're sure it's one of those. If you want $1500 from us, then you need to prove it's not Norweb because when we pedigreed it we had good reason to do so. We took the pedigree off for you because it doesn't matter much to us whether it's there or not - send the coin back and we'll put it back on.

 

Jadecoin knows they're in for a fight they can't win and then runs it up the flag on the chatroom, thus ensuring they'll never see one red cent. The chatroom minions decide to have a hanging based on scant [err.. no] evidence and here we are......

[sanmary]

How about being responsible for ones actions. Tough to come by in todays world!! Exactly why I will NEVER spend a dime of my money with PCGS!

[dragon]

Yep, that's a different spin on the 'same' story alright, . I dunno if anyone really knows all of the exact and complete facts in this saga and exactly what happened other than Jadecoin and PCGS.

 

dragon

[dragon]

Personally, I think my issue with that PCGS MS65 1882-CC dollar that I owned and tried two or three times for a 66, sold it, and then saw it in a B&M auction a few months later in a PCGS 67 holder is a much bigger issue than the removal of a pedigree from a tag, but that's just me. I mean my old coin just magically went up in value more than ten fold for the next owner (a big PCGS dealer BTW) courtesy of PCGS when they had previously graded it a 65 at least three times, now THATS an issue to be upset over IMO!

 

dragon

[Tradedollarnut]

It seems to me that Jadecoin always had a better shot of getting money out of PCGS by going the grade review route - but he's never done that. I also have some qualms about whether it's ethical to buy a coin you think is overgraded and then go after the grading service after the fact. I've seen plenty of overgraded coins in all holders and I could never get beyond the thinking stage of buying one to submit it for grade review.

[sanmary]

How does an XF coin magically turn into a PF53???

[gmarguli]

Whether Jadecoin likes the coin or thinks it is graded properly has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENED.

 

The coin wasn't just "written up" for presidential review, it was hand delivered to David Hall and discussed with him.

 

Obviously Jadecoin wanted to be compensated for the removal of pedigree. Come on, are you even going to debate that point? What did you think Jadecoin wanted? Perhaps Mark Feld really wanted a correct insert and was happy when PCGS removed that FB from his 1945 PCGS MS65FB Mercury dime. What, Mark wanted to be compensated for the value difference? Well he never said that! All he did was send it in for review where some minion there removed the FB designation.

 

And I wouldn't say that Jadecoin is in for a fight that they can't win. Just because Legend backed down over the cost doesn't mean others will. The tales of PCGS refusing to honor its guarantee are coming pretty fast. I'd guess it is directly do to the fact that CU is going down the drain financially. How long will it be before they screw someone who has friends in the DA's office or at the FTC or is a lawyer and files a $10M class action lawsuit against them. They aren't bullet proof. Neither is David Hall and if he keeps up screwing people he might just screw the wrong person who will show him he isn't bullet proof.

 

Hitch your wagon to the CU horses if you want, but don't be surprised when those horses are put to sleep. Remember, these are the same people you accused of screwing with you personally a few years back over the registry weightings. Did they fix those weightings? Ahhs, your bias is showing.

[sanmary]

Damn good point.....wonder why Mr. Dave Bowers is no longer with CU?? Perhaps integrity had something to do with it.

[TonerGuy]

"is a lawyer and files a $10M class action lawsuit against them"

 

[Tradedollarnut]

How does an XF coin magically turn into a PF53???

 

Actually, it's AU vs MS64, but I have several points to make regarding that question:

 

1) The auction houses LOVE to conservatively grade in name sales. B&M was especially adept at designating coins that would grade up to even MS65 as AU. For instance, the Eliasberg 1843 dollar was cataloged as AU58 and is now NGC MS64.

 

2) There is little doubt that the grading standards for colonials is all over the board at both services. If you believe the posts from colonial collectors, neither NGC nor PCGS can grade those things consistently.

 

3) There is also no doubt that standards have changed regarding the high AU grades vs the low MS grades since 1988. I've personally resubmitted several old holder AU58's that became MS64's, as I'm sure have others on this board.

 

 

[EVillageProwler]

I really don't think it's fair to claim that TDN has a pro-PCGS bias any more than it's fair to say that Greg has an anti-PCGS bias.

 

I know TDN personally, and I honestly don't think he has an agenda here that is pro- or anti- any specific service.

 

I don't know Greg nearly as well, but I think he's been awfully consistent in what he's been saying. Perhaps consistent to a fault...

 

Certainly there are plenty of folks who are either deliberately or unintentionally exhibiting strong bias regarding a specific service. But, I don't think it helps this technically intellectual debate by making incendiary comments simply because the other person has the audacity to express a contrary opinion.

 

And, in case anyone's forgotten... This is an intellectual debate. None of us here are real actors in this drama (or morality play -- your choice!).

 

BTW, I still have a hard time recognizing a legal liability on the part of PCGS. It would help if someone can show that a pedigree information is included in the warranty.

 

I do, however, think that PCGS could have handled this with greater deftness. But, that's technically a PR issue...

 

EVP

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Obviously Jadecoin wanted to be compensated for the removal of pedigree.

 

Oh? I read all the original posts - can you point it out for me where he said that to HRH? Ooops - we weren't there - so we don't know what was said......

 

Perhaps Mark Feld really wanted a correct insert and was happy when PCGS removed that FB from his 1945 PCGS MS65FB Mercury dime.

 

Completely different situation - it was clear to all that the coin was not FB. How can it be clear to all that the Hibernia is not Norweb? IMO, PCGS should have compensated Mark Feld and then gone after the original submittor, but they were not bound to do so under the terms of their submission documents.

 

I still wonder how NGC would have handled that one. Anyone know how much NGC pays out every year under their grade guarantee? Anyone know what happened to the ugly washed out MS65 trade dollar that was resubmitted to NGC because it had turned in the holder.... it was then dipped to the extent it was almost completely devoid of luster and returned to me in the same MS65 holder? .... man - somebody got screwed on that coin even more than the $3500 I lost on it!

 

Greg - I've hitched my wagon to no service. I learned a while back that neither service is any better than any other. Some just play the public relations game a bit better. What interests me most is the coins. Perhaps I'm spending way too much time on this issue playing devils' advocate, but like I inferred earlier - it appeared to me that the facts weren't interfering with a good hanging!

 

 

[sanmary]

OK....a more common slider perhaps, but a coin of this magnitude not being properly scrutinized from day one.....gotta wonder what's going on here. I've received B&M monthlys for years and about 2 years ago I started seeing a shift of offerings. In the past I'd see a fair mix of NGC vs PCGS coins being offered. The last couple of years was VERY heavy (about 95%) PCGS coins being offered. Why do you think this happened??

[DonHeath]

Guys,

 

I apologize in advance for interrupting the ongoing discussion, but I've thought about this discussion a long time and was wondering what would have happened if David Hall had handed the coin back to James at the show and said we don't guarantee pedigree? Since PCGS has apparently taken the stance pedigree is not part of their guarantee, why did David take the coin for presidential review?