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Will Legends realize its dream to be a WANNABE coin grading service ?

Started by carson city,

61 posts in this topic

carson city

carson city

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Your concern for being taken seriously is misplaced. It is CAC that should be concerned. CAC is the group that is hell-bent on the destruction of the two premier coin grading services in the World. It is CAC that wishes to succeed by demeaning, second-guessing and ridiculing the many employees of NGC & PCGS.

 

This can't be a Wharton Business School Model for success!

 

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BillJones

BillJones

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A couple coin dealers, David Lawrence and Harry Laibstam, have been passing judgments on the merits of coins within their given grades for years. David Lawrence has a system of stars (from * to *****) and a toning level number (1 to 10). Laibstam has a less detailed system, but it nonetheless provides an opinion on the quality of the coin relative to its assigned grade.

 

The important point about these two dealers is that they have made no attempt to interject their advisory system into TOTAL market place. They provide these opinions as service to customers and of course, as a way to differentiate their companies from other firms. There has never been an implication that they are out to invalidate to the assigned grades of other people’s coins.

 

I get the impression that invalidation is one of the goals of CAC. At the same time CAC is, at least initially, only going to give their blessing only to coins they are selling. Therefore everyone else, including collectors who have spent years building their collections before CAC came on the scene, will be out in the cold. As such if CAC succeeds, it will have an adverse effect upon the marketability and hence the value other people’s coins.

 

As such I hope that those of you who think that those who have concerns about this consortium are expressing those concerns on our behalf, and not on behalf of the TPGs.

 

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bsshog40

bsshog40

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Well I finally went to Legend's website. I can see some of this opinion but not all. I do see the bashing of PCGS. Mostly sounds like a disgruntled employee. I did not see any bashing of NGC. Actually it states that NGC is finally catching up to PCGS that the coin is finally beggining to matter than the dollars. I would presume that a business would try to create business with reputation and morals. They do very well in describing thier experience in the business, but then it takes me away from them as they start bashing, making claims as to PCGS catering to large dealers than the collector. It also states that dealers have a tendency to over-flow the TPG's that in turn, causes them to improperly grade coins. I wouldn't know if this was truthful on either issue and wouldn't know if there was a way to prove it. As I look at it, all TPG's have a standard for grading via the sheldon scale. But not all people see things in the same perspective which leaves grading up to the individual person's point of view of the coin. Not everyone is perfect and I'm sure there are some over-graded coins in the marketplace with respectable TPG names on them. We've also seen under-graded coins with the same labels. But to insinuate that this is present practice, I think is merely an accusation of person's upset with a certain TPG. Now I don't tend to interfere in topics that I am not knowledgeable in or have no interest in as it does not pertain to me, but, there is a lot of conflict between individuals here that seem to be making enemies of fellow hobbyists. I'm sure that those who have financial interests do not take likely to downgrading a company that they have investment in. This is and will always be for those who seek the almighty dollar. Me, as a hard working budgeting collector, I rely on reputation, experience, and recommendations. Right now, I stand behind the Top Two TPG's merely based on what coins I own in thier slabs, and the knowledge of my fellow forum members here. Time will bring new competition to the grading market I'm sure. Time will also show who is reputable and who is not. I'm only stating my opinions and I am not bashing anyone who has posted to these topics.

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carson city

carson city

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Right on point ! The TPG services can and will take care of themselves. We as coin collectors can only offer our observations and opinions in this ongoing CAC matter. Transparency is a wondeful thing----H.G. Wells

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carson city

carson city

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Your analogy with some dealers * star system or PQ designation sits well with most collectors. It's a personal observation, it's FREE and the market place or Auction will take it into consideration, for what it's worth, and pay accordingly.

 

However, coin collectors are not saying who can and who cannot be trusted when rendering any given opinion. Rather, given the situation wherein those TPG services that do not permit their professional coin graders to also be coin dealers, the perception is one of non-biased grading.

 

On the other hand, wherein a group of self-appointed graders (Dealers) that do have a vested financial interest in the coins they are re-grading, for a fee, the perception is one of TOTAL bias.

 

It just doesn't pass the smell test---Daisy Duke

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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TDN--you do have a sense of style and humor ! Common ground, at last !

 

PS--Daisy Duke in the 21st century is Jessica Simpson

 

I'm not a gentleman, so I prefer brunettes. ;)

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AegisIII

AegisIII

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I don't believe anyone is against free enterprise, or another Grading Service. What most people object to is trying to build your company(CAC) at the expense of sabotaging NGC & PCGS by ridiculing, second-guessing and demeaning the full-time professional coin graders at these and other TPG services. If CAC wants to start another TPG service--it's a free marketplace. Going into business with a business model that relies on sabotaging well respected companies is a prescription for failure !

 

That doesn't sound right. If CAC causes PCGS and NGC to crash and burn, CAC itself would soon find itself also out of business. Frankly, CAC needs the slabbers to continue for them to also continue.

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BankNote1

BankNote1

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I think CAC is just another marketing ploy like "The Registry", NGC's "Star" slab, or the "must have" MS70 slabs.

The CAC dealer will have an advantage because he is selling "CAC" coins! Will the CAC dealers sticker their own coins? Will CAC be a "subjective" judgement? If the CAC is only subjective will we need another group to check the CGC coins???????

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Doogy

Doogy

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I have tried to stay out of this discussion as much as possible, both here and across the street, but i feel something needs to be pointed out.

 

What is happening to the two top grading services in respect to their criticism by numismatic experts, is the same thing that happened (is happening) to our bifurcated political system in the US; unchecked power corrupts. I'm not saying here that the two top TPGs are corrupt, i'm simply saying that they have "created" the market instead just simply being a part of it. They both have no qualms about wanting to grade the finest coins in the world, period. This is both bragging rights and a valuable tool of proving to the numismatic community that they are supreme rulers in their own right. Because of this, too many rarities have passed through the services hands and have been excepted with problems or have been accepted with doctored details. (i.e. PCGS's famed Gobrecht, as pointed out by Bruce). The group in question is simply trying to call these coins into question.

 

On the subject of TDN; he and Laura have a vested interest in not only protecting their business, but ensuring that the grading services they use as a barometer for consumer protection is not watered down by grading problem coins, stripped out , gradeflation, et cetera. Let's face it; if you're a small-medium-or large dealer in the numismatic field, the grading services have certainly helped you move coins by providing an independent (of the dealer anyway) third party grade on the coin, not to mention the ability to properly authenticate the said coin. The public has instilled trust in these grading companies, and the dealers have a vested interest to ensure the grading companies "get it right", so neither loses face. When the quality control of a TPG (don't forgot; publicly traded companies that NEED to grade as many coins as possible to please shareholders) slips, it is not only the responsiblity, but the moral highground of these dealers to step in and cry "FOUL"! I think this is precisely what TDN, Laura, Mr. Albenese, Mark and others are doing; they are using their high-powered numismatic clout to try to change, or at least adjust the way things are being handled by the TPGs in question.

 

Let's face it; on many levels we are all collectors here. Some collectors/dealers have developed more clout and respect in the industry due to the years they have invested in our hobby. When they see something amiss and try to step in to correct or get a point across, we should withhold judgement until at least their efforts are well underway and it is time to start doing an assessment of what is working and what it simply not. I applaud the efforts of those in the hobby that are trying to do things to change it for the better, and hope that cooler heads can prevail on this topic for now, especially on this forum where we've always been known as the more genteel one when compared to the zoo ATS.

 

Doug

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DirtyGoldMan

DirtyGoldMan

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One main distinction is that with CAC, the inmates (dealers) will be running the asylum. Conflict of interest---doesn't pass the smell test !

 

I have thought about this long and hard and have reached the stunning conclusion that you probably should not buy coins that are CAC-approved, nor should you submit coins to be approved.

 

OT, what coins do you collect? How do you think your collecting will be impacted by the CAC (if at all)?

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Zoins

Zoins

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One main distinction is that with CAC, the inmates (dealers) will be running the asylum. Conflict of interest---doesn't pass the smell test !
A similar thing is said about DH and PCGS but that doesn't stop them from getting a lot of business.

 

I think a lot of it will come down to how the CAC and dealers behave. If people trust them, then they can do well. If they lose collector trust, they won't. It's kind of like Google. Google collects all kinds of information on people but so far they have people's trust so it's ok. It's also similar to the TPGs. For all the issues brought up, many people still trust them and continue to do business with them.

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ziggy29

ziggy29

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One main distinction is that with CAC, the inmates (dealers) will be running the asylum. Conflict of interest---doesn't pass the smell test !
What is David Hall Rare Coins selling?
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ziggy29

ziggy29

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Don't expect CC to answer your question - he clams up and claims ignorance when faced with a tough one. lol

It's actually worse than that. PCGS recently hired a young lady to be VP of business development for their currency operations.

 

Not long ago, she confirmed ATS that she had to discontinue her currency dealing business in order to take that job, to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. So why didn't DHRC disband after David Hall became part of PCGS?

 

Note that I'm not claiming DH has actually done anything wrong or underhanded in his coin firm's favor with respect to PCGS-graded coins; I've not seen any evidence of that. But why the double standards where avoiding the appearance of conflict of interest are concerned?

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Zoins

Zoins

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Don't expect CC to answer your question - he clams up and claims ignorance when faced with a tough one. lol

It's actually worse than that. PCGS recently hired a young lady to be VP of business development for their currency operations.

 

Not long ago, she confirmed ATS that she had to discontinue her currency dealing business in order to take that job, to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. So why didn't DHRC disband after David Hall became part of PCGS?

 

Note that I'm not claiming DH has actually done anything wrong or underhanded in his coin firm's favor with respect to PCGS-graded coins; I've not seen any evidence of that. But why the double standards where avoiding the appearance of conflict of interest are concerned?

That is an interesting double standard....
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michael

michael

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Re: Will Legends realize its dream to be a WANNABE coin grading service ?

 

 

I guess the addage of "If you can't beat them, join them" applies here ! I, like many others, will watch the Train Wreck from afar. When will NGC,PCGS other TPG services conduct the burial services ?

 

carson city ------------are you retarded or just did not take your meds today?? and/or miss your anger management classes??

 

 

 

 

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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As I indicated in other posts, I don't have the answers. And CAC spokespersons, after they have leaked a few details, apparently don't want to inform us !

 

We are secretly informing everyone but you. It's quite amusing to watch you flail around and we don't want to have to increase our entertainment budget quite yet.

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IGWT

IGWT

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TDN -- Thanks for sending me a copy of the Collector Assurance Corp.'s business plan. I appreciate the opportunity to provide feedback from a collector's viewpoint. And, of course, I'll keep it under wraps as you requested. (I didn't really need to see a copy of the voluminous appendix with the analyses of anticipated performance under various operating conditions, but it sure is interesting.) Best of luck! (thumbs u

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DirtyGoldMan

DirtyGoldMan

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TDN -- Thanks for sending me a copy Collector Assurance Corp.'s business plan. I appreciate the opportunity to provide feedback from a collector's viewpoint. And, of course, I'll keep it under wraps as you requested. (I didn't really need to see a copy of the voluminous appendix with the analyses of anticipated performance under various operating conditions, but it sure is interesting.) Best of luck! (thumbs u

 

Hey, I thought I was the only one privileged enough to get that stuff. :o Next thing I know, Longacre will be spouting off more questions, etc. :blahblah:

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