The "Consortium"

[Connecticoin]

There is a very active thread across the street disucssing how this so-called "Consortium" espoused by Laura Sprerber and now enorsed by Doug Winter regarding how this may work:

 

Link to "Consortium" thread ATS

 

What do you think about this? Would this proposed "grader of the graders" help prevent coin doctoring or "conservation" in pursuit of a better label? I am particularly interested in Feld's take on this.

[MarkFeld]

There is a very active thread across the street disucssing how this so-called "Consortium" espoused by Laura Sprerber and now enorsed by Doug Winter regarding how this may work:

 

Link to "Consortium" thread ATS

 

What do you think about this? Would this proposed "grader of the graders" help prevent coin doctoring or "conservation" in pursuit of a better label? I am particularly interested in Feld's take on this.

Here is where you might be able to get that take if you pose a question.

[Stanley]

My first response: I see grading fees increasing as the market adjusts affecting mostly the higher end material.

[PerryHall]

This special sticker denoting the Consortium seal of approval is nothing more than a marketing tool to sell coins for higher than retail prices. As long a the Consortium members are evaluating the coins that they own there is a major conflict of interest. Sorry to be so cynical but I don't trust the foxes to guard the hen house.

[Connecticoin]

Here[/url] is where you might be able to get that take if you pose a question.

 

Well heck, the old Tangent / US Coin confusion rears its ugly head again!

[MarkFeld]

This special sticker denoting the Consortium seal of approval is nothing more than a marketing tool to sell coins for higher than retail prices. As long a the Consortium members are evaluating the coins that they own there is a major conflict of interest. Sorry to be so cynical but I don't trust the foxes to guard the hen house.

Well, TDN apparently disagrees with you regarding what the seal of approval might be good for, and many collectors and dealers are troubled by many of the same things that he is:

Here is what I truly believe: the crackout and doctoring games hurt collectors more than dealers. The TPGs created the crackout game to boost revenues and have been [at best] partial failures at stopping the coin doctoring. The consortium, through its formation, will force the TPGs to end the crackout game and crack down on the coin doctors.

 

In the end the collector wins. Prices do go up, but grades go down. It's better for a collector to pay 20-40% more of the next lower grade than 0% more of the next higher grade. And own a non doctored coin to boot.

 

Also, I might be mistaken, but I am not aware that

the Consortium members are evaluating the coins that they own

[JamminJ]

It will be almost as good as eagle eye blue indians

[SkyMan]

Three thoughts, first, given counterfeiting in the coin industry, if the "Seal" does become a useful marketing tool then we can expect to see it counterfeited, probably for use with borderline coins.

 

Second, how much liability will the consortium be willing to accept? If they are liable, then they must charge something to cover their insurance fees etc.

 

Third, my spelling is probably off, but as the Romans said, "Qui custodiet custodian"? Who guards the guardians?

[MAULEMALL]

It will be almost as good as eagle eye blue indians

[MikeKing]

It will be almost as good as eagle eye blue indians

 

excellent point

 

didn't and doesn't a single person do this...Snow is his name...with photograde? or eagle eye whatever...

now you have a bunch of dealers offering another option with more power to it. Is this academic? I don't think so. Interesting power play. I'd like to see how this plays out.

[MikeInFL]

Sounds like a very interesting idea.

 

But why not just start a new grading company based upon these standards?

 

It seems to me with all the overgrading and holdering of prevalent in the coin market, there is an opportunity for someone who does it right....Mike

[Cladiator]

I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection. Never did, never will.

[MarkFeld]

I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection. Never did, never will.

That's good to hear and as it should be. However, nowhere have I seen stated that Collectors Acceptance Group plans to tell anyone else whether a coin is worthy of their collection. They are merely providing an opinion that others are free to care about or ignore altogether.

[Cladiator]

I think this hobby would be better off without the TPG's and without any consortium of TPG checkers.

 

The collector should be solely responsible for the coins they add to their collection. After all, it is THEIR collection. If the collector doesn't want to learn and become proficient in their series of interest then it's their fault if they get screwed.

 

It's just a sign of the greater baby sitter/entitlement mentallity that is part of why this country is slowly but surely falling.

 

You want nice coins in your collection? You want long term value in your coins? THEN GET OFF YOUR , LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT THE COINS AND DO IT YOURSELF. People need to stop demanding that other people do their f'ing work for them. Maybe then we can stand up proud once again.

[Tradedollarnut]

I think this hobby would be better off without the TPG's and without any consortium of TPG checkers.

 

The collector should be solely responsible for the coins they add to their collection. After all, it is THEIR collection. If the collector doesn't want to learn and become proficient in their series of interest then it's their fault if they get screwed.

 

It's just a sign of the greater baby sitter/entitlement mentallity that is part of why this country is slowly but surely falling.

 

You want nice coins in your collection? You want long term value in your coins? THEN GET OFF YOUR , LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT THE COINS AND DO IT YOURSELF. People need to stop demanding that other people do their f'ing work for them. Maybe then we can stand up proud once again.

 

Why does a vision of George C Scott dressed as Patton standing in front of a huge American flag keep popping into my mind?

[Cladiator]

This hobby used to stand for something, mean something. It was about history, learning, appreciation, value and the pure enjoyment of collecting.

 

More and more these days those things are being left behind. With Third Party Graders and now Fourth Party "Acceptors" it's taking all of the leg work out of the hobby. Just close your eyes and click the buy button on anything that says PCGS CAC.

 

It's a sad day indeed in the hobby of numismatics.

[Cladiator]

I think this hobby would be better off without the TPG's and without any consortium of TPG checkers.

 

The collector should be solely responsible for the coins they add to their collection. After all, it is THEIR collection. If the collector doesn't want to learn and become proficient in their series of interest then it's their fault if they get screwed.

 

It's just a sign of the greater baby sitter/entitlement mentallity that is part of why this country is slowly but surely falling.

 

You want nice coins in your collection? You want long term value in your coins? THEN GET OFF YOUR , LEARN SOMETHING ABOUT THE COINS AND DO IT YOURSELF. People need to stop demanding that other people do their f'ing work for them. Maybe then we can stand up proud once again.

 

Why does a vision of George C Scott dressed as Patton standing in front of a huge American flag keep popping into my mind?

Damn, now that is a compliment. Thank you.

[MikeKing]

I don't need any group, person or "consortium" to tell me if a coin is worthy of my collection. Never did, never will.

That's good to hear and as it should be. However, nowhere have I seen stated that Collectors Acceptance Group plans to tell anyone else whether a coin is worthy of their collection. They are merely providing an opinion that others are free to care about or ignore altogether.

 

my guess is that it will be ignored (no offense meant for the good people involved in this effort).

[PerryHall]

But why not just start a new grading company based upon these standards?

 

I had the same thought. If they are so smart, why not just start a new grading service?

 

 

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

My response, which I alluded to in Mark Feld's thread, is that I am tired of dealers, millionaires and grading companies telling me what I should collect.

[Cladiator]

My response, which I alluded to in Mark Feld's thread, is that I am tired of dealers and grading companies telling me what I may or may not collect.

(thumbs up

[MarkFeld]

My response, which I alluded to in Mark Feld's thread, is that I am tired of dealers and grading companies telling me what I may or may not collect.

:thumbs up:

James, as as I mentioned previously in this thread: Nowhere have I seen stated that Collectors Acceptance Group plans to tell anyone else whether a coin is worthy of their collection. They are merely providing an opinion that others are free to care about or ignore altogether.

 

In your case, I'll change it to: Nowhere have I seen stated that Collectors Acceptance Group plans to tell anyone what they may or may not collect.

 

If you guys don't like the concept, that's fine and dandy, but out of fairness, please don't attribute edicts to them that they haven't put forth themselves.

 

 

[MAULEMALL]

My response, which I alluded to in Mark Feld's thread, is that I am tired of dealers and grading companies telling me what I may or may not collect.

(thumbs up

[Oldtrader3]

That fact that the hobby has reached the level to require another method of grading "certification" as it were, is pretty disturbing to me. Like most collectors, I have spent a good deal of money since 1986 to slab coins as an assurance that they are legitimately graded. I have sold about (300) slabbed coins in the past two years so this problem makes me less crazy now than it would have then. However, the level of greed in this hobby is very disturbing to a collector like me who has never doctored a coin, doesn't crack out every third coin that I buy, and doesn't own a bottle of MS70, or a putty (Bondex) can.

 

I don't know, but it seems that there is something needed to better control the TPG industry. The problem does seem to have gotten out of hand. I guess my question is, why don't PCGS and NGC clean up their own mess starting today!! They could decide to start grading at the standards that were/are the real industry standards, grading sets and all. This whole issue gives me a gut ache after (40) years. I have been had a few times, buying manipulated coins from an ANA President/dealer plus three large national dealers. For me these are a big deal because this loss exceeeds $2000.00 and I don't buy many coins costing over $500.00 any more.

 

TPG's (if anyone still remembers) started because of dealer's excesses and doctor's cheating thirty years ago. Now we have come full circle and nothing is changed. I feel that just needed to vent and get it off my chest about how a small (who used to be a bigger), long time collector feels about this entire mess.

 

Now having said this, I guess I will need to pony up more bucks for another level of certification and make those coin-doctor-screwed coins that I have bought into expensive NCS paperweights!

[Tradedollarnut]

They can't afford to clean up the marketplace. Removing every overgraded/unappealing coin would break both of them. Sadly, this is the only practical solution that doesn't involve continued grade inflation.

[IGWT]

They can't afford to clean up the marketplace. Removing every overgraded/unappealing coin would break both of them. Sadly, this is the only practical solution that doesn't involve continued grade inflation.

 

I'll have to read the details before forming an opinion on whether or not certification by CAG (or is that CAC according to earlygoldnut?) will eliminate or reduce crackouts and gradeflation.

 

But what truly bothers me is that collectors -- not dealers, not the TPGs -- will likely take it on the chin if their current slabbed coins don't make the grade. The TPGs can't afford to clean up the mess, so let's put it on the backs of the collectors who relied on the dealers and the TPGs. What's the chance that those coins will hold their value? Has CAG performed any studies to determine how the reaction of those collectors will affect the market as a whole, or is all this based on gut instinct?

[Tradedollarnut]

Sadly, many collectors for years have felt they got a better bargain to buy low end coins at bid than to pay a premium for a high end coin. Despite repeated efforts by many to convince them otherwise....

[dooly]

Unllike the rest of you i have just started getting my coins graded and i can say that ngc have not overgraded any of my coins .. Is this a sign that they have learnt a lesson re overgrading.. and are trying to move forward.. ?

[rrantique]

Unllike the rest of you i have just started getting my coins graded and i can say that ngc have not overgraded any of my coins .. Is this a sign that they have learnt a lesson re overgrading.. and are trying to move forward.. ?

 

[font:Arial Black] As with everything else Wayne, the job is not over with until the paper work is done [/font]

[Oldtrader3]

TDN: I realise that it is not economically possible to remove each and every over-graded coin from the marketplace. What I was suggesting was: drawing a line in the sand today and starting to live up to their standards henceforth. I know that the average coin passing by a grader gets about 2 nanoseconds of scutiny. However, maybe raising the fees a little and scrutinizing a couple seconds more during grading, per a standard set might help. What you gentlemen are proposing is an admission that the system is broken and beyond repair. Think about it, why would I want to submit a coin twice, waste the time, and pay two grading fees?

 

I have an NCS coin that came from a dealer (who shall remain nameless) that puts their own seal on slabs. My coin was raw. So I don't know and will never know if it was an honest mistake or if that is why it was sold raw, but NGC BB'ed as messed with (spot removed) when I submitted it. I am a little chapped about this transaction, but am getting over the $500.00 loss. Shame on me, I did not scrutinize the coin as closely as I normally would, because of the dealer's reputation, and got hosed. I realise that similar things happen to most collectors. Is being a smaller collector and not a professional dealer equivalent to being a driveling fool, set up to be sheared as sheep, as Greg makes me think he feels sometimes?