The time of truth is just around the corner for the grading services - Laura

[stev32k]

So says Laura of Legend. Not sure what she is referring to, but you can read about it here One thing I found interesting is that the grading services have sold off their grading sets.

[WinstonWare]

This reads like some type of terrorist threat…the time is near, the truth will be unveiled, the big trap awaits…BUWWWHHHHAAAAAAA

[James_OldeTowne]

Seems to link to an essentially blank page.

[James_OldeTowne]

OK, found the "hot topic". Doesn't really seem all that hot to me, though. Reminiscent of the "coin posse" situation that was discussed ad nauseum across the street.

[rrantique]

This reads like some type of terrorist threat…the time is near, the truth will be unveiled, the big trap awaits…BUWWWHHHHAAAAAAA

 

[TwoKopeiki]

Sounds to me like someone's got their hands on a sonic welder and planning to create another TPG.

[BillJones]

Although I really dislike the messenger, this is a fair amount of truth to what she is saying.

 

A lot of dealers have said that you can’t be a collector and dealer at the same time. While it is certainly true that your business will suffer if you keep everything that this good, it’s also true that a reference collection can keep your grading skills sharp. That’s why the sale of the PCGS reference grading sets was not a good move for them.

 

Sadly there are a lot of over graded coins out there in major grading service holders. After a few days on the boards looking at one overgraded coin after another, I found that sometimes I started to “believe” the inflated, “gradeflation” standards. My eyes started to readjust to all the junk I was seeing.

 

The best way to get grounded again was to come home and look at MY coins. They proved that decent stuff is in slabs. All you need to is the ability to spot it AND the courage to pay some prices that seem to be too high. The truth is quality sells and is worth buying. Overgraded junk sells only the mentally or educationally challenged at the premium prices.

 

Ms. Laura also makes a good point when she says that PCGS starting heading south when it became a publicly traded company. Like it or not the grading business is headed into the post mature period of its marketing cycle. Many of the better “classic coins” have been graded. The only way to expand their business and keep the stockholders happy is for PCGS to run specials (a.k.a. marketing gimmicks) with modern coins or water down their grading standards to induce crack out artists to submit their formerly slabbed classic coins to them. Otherwise, the supply of really nice raw coins is shrinking and so is the market for their services.

 

Slabbing as a concept is not headed for extinction, but the “bad old days” when you had to know how to grade to survive in numismatics are coming back. You never could be stupid and buy coins going by the grade on the slab. But today you chances of getting a fair deal by buying coins that way are becoming more and more remote.

[WinstonWare]

Sadly there are a lot of over graded coins out there in major grading service holders. After a few days on the boards looking at one overgraded coin after another, I found that sometimes I started to “believe” the inflated, “gradeflation” standards. My eyes started to readjust to all the junk I was seeing.

 

This must be a reference to ATS…

[gmarguli]

I'm waiting with bated breath over this major industry shaking announcement.

 

[WinstonWare]

I'm waiting with bated breath over this major industry shaking announcement.

 

 

Oh Greg, I didn’t imagine you as having a teddy bear. That’s cute

[James_OldeTowne]

the sale of the PCGS reference grading sets was not a good move for them

When was this sale announced? I wasn't aware of this happening at all.

[MarkFeld]

I'm waiting with bated breath over this major industry shaking announcement.

 

 

Oh Greg, I didn’t imagine you as having a teddy bear. That’s cute

Don't be silly - Greg is obviously the one (the teddy bear) on the left.

[PerryHall]

Maybe they sold their reference grading set because the coins are now all grossly undergraded.

[BillJones]

I'm waiting with bated breath over this major industry shaking announcement.

 

 

Yes, I'm with you. I don't see any major revolts coming from anyone except Laura. There are too many folks who have spent too much time convincing the numismatic world that PCGS walks on water and that their opinions can never be questioned, at least in the public forum. Privately many dealers who know the business will say $^#@^&*%#$# when to comes to PCGS, but publicly they keep their heads down in the foxhole and count their sales and profits.

[BillJones]

Maybe they sold their reference grading set because the coins are now all grossly undergraded.

 

That's a good one.

 

Maybe all of those coins are in new holders with one or two points added to the original grade.

[DC Dawg]

That’s why the sale of the PCGS reference grading sets was not a good move for them.

 

Bill... I agree with what you wrote, but I was curious about this statement. I did a few online searches to see if any of the popular search engines could find any reference. What I did find was information regarding the PCGS reference set in the Collectors Universe 10- K (annual report as of 9/13/06) for coins and stamps being worth $62,000. The report does not break down the how much is in coins versus stamps. These costs are not amortized since they are fixed assets with appreciating values. Their 10-Q (quarterly report as of 5/10/07) shows an increase in the value of the reference set to $218,000--but that now includes CU's gem grading business.

 

You can find more financial reports online at the SEC EDGAR website.

 

CU/PCGS is reporting that they do have a coin reference set but not how much of one they have. Unless they are violating Sarbanes-Oxley and lying, do you have a reference to your statement?

 

Scott

[BillJones]

That’s why the sale of the PCGS reference grading sets was not a good move for them.

 

Bill... I agree with what you wrote, but I was curious about this statement. I did a few online searches to see if any of the popular search engines could find any reference. What I did find was information regarding the PCGS reference set in the Collectors Universe 10- K (annual report as of 9/13/06) for coins and stamps being worth $62,000. The report does not break down the how much is in coins versus stamps. These costs are not amortized since they are fixed assets with appreciating values. Their 10-Q (quarterly report as of 5/10/07) shows an increase in the value of the reference set to $218,000--but that now includes CU's gem grading business.

 

You can find more financial reports online at the SEC EDGAR website.

 

CU/PCGS is reporting that they do have a coin reference set but not how much of one they have. Unless they are violating Sarbanes-Oxley and lying, do you have a reference to your statement?

 

Scott

 

I was going by what the first poster had said about PCGS doing away with their grading set.

 

At any rate if their combined stamp and coin grading set only comes to $62,000, that's not much. An experienced grader can sharpen their eye for grading ciculated coins by going to the ANA Grading Guide. You only REALLY need to have the coins "in the flesh" for grading purposes for Mint State and Proof pieces.

 

In today's market, or even the market of a couple of years ago, $62,000 in Mint State and Proof material is not much. Sixty-two grand won't take you very far when it comes to a decent Proof or Mint State collection of high grade 19th century type material.

[DonHeath]

Legend is still promoting Biddlesbank.com on their site. He's currently discussing Mr.Salzberg and Tom Noe.

 

"FOR A CANDID, HONEST, AND HUMOROUS TAKE ON THE MARKET WE SUGGEST YOU CHECK OUT THIS WEB SITE: www.biddlesbank.com."

[Keleum]

YAGS (yet another grading service) would deal only in re-certification of US coins valued over $500. This re-certification is done using the 100 point Moody scale. Instead of a reference set, a huge mood ring sits on the presidents desk.

 

[yes, i meant this as mockingly ridiculous as it sounds!]

[LuvToCollect]

She might be right but with her as source, I really don't care.

[gmarguli]

Legend is still promoting Biddlesbank.com on their site. He's currently discussing Mr.Salzberg and Tom Noe.

 

"FOR A CANDID, HONEST, AND HUMOROUS TAKE ON THE MARKET WE SUGGEST YOU CHECK OUT THIS WEB SITE: www.biddlesbank.com."

 

I didn't read enough of his posts before he was banned to know if he was always like this or he snapped after he was banned. Is he joking or insane?

[DonHeath]

Is he joking or insane?

 

Seems like a bright guy, and certainly prolific. Some of the commentary is well reasoned. Laura seems to want the industry to read him.

[PerryHall]

So says Laura of Legend. Not sure what she is referring to, but you can read about it here One thing I found interesting is that the grading services have sold off their grading sets.

 

I brought this topic up on the PCGS web site chat room and David Hall posted that PCGS did not sell their reference grading sets. Did NGC sell their grading reference sets or is Laura just trying to stir up trouble.

[stev32k]

So says Laura of Legend. Not sure what she is referring to, but you can read about it here One thing I found interesting is that the grading services have sold off their grading sets.

 

I brought this topic up on the PCGS web site chat room and David Hall posted that PCGS did not sell their reference grading sets. Did NGC sell their grading reference sets or is Laura just trying to stir up trouble.

 

We must be seeing some difference of opinion on what constitutes a grading set. If their combined reference sets for coins and stamps is valued at $62,000 they ain't got much. What do you think a reference set for double eagles, eagles, half-eagles, and quarter eagles would be worth? The same is true for almost any type coin set. Maybe one or two in MS grades. But putting together a reference set of MS type coins would be an investment in the millions not the mid-five figures.

[chinook]

Maybe they sold their reference grading set because the coins are now all grossly undergraded.

 

Perhaps they sold it because it no longer fits in a 100pt system.

[James_OldeTowne]

If their combined reference sets for coins and stamps is valued at $62,000 they ain't got much.

There is no way in heck that I will believe a grading set reflective of all the coins that PCGS and NGC grade could cost just $62,000, even fifteen years ago. That's an absurd figure, and therefore, I do not believe it. $62,000 might not even cover just the Morgan dollars necessary to comprise a comprehensive reference set of business strikes and proofs, from AG all the way through MS/PF-69.

 

The $62,000 figure is pure nonsense.

[michael]

there is a fair amount of truth to what she is saying.

 

A lot of dealers have said that you can’t be a collector and dealer at the same time. While it is certainly true that your business will suffer if you keep everything that this good, it’s also true that a reference collection can keep your grading skills sharp. That’s why the sale of the PCGS reference grading sets was not a good move for them.

 

Sadly there are a lot of over graded coins out there in major grading service holders. After a few days on the boards looking at one overgraded coin after another, I found that sometimes I started to “believe” the inflated, “gradeflation” standards. My eyes started to readjust to all the junk I was seeing.

 

The best way to get grounded again was to come home and look at MY coins. They proved that decent stuff is in slabs. All you need to is the ability to spot it AND the courage to pay some prices that seem to be too high. The truth is quality sells and is worth buying. Overgraded junk sells only the mentally or educationally challenged at the premium prices.

 

Ms. Laura also makes a good point when she says that PCGS starting heading south when it became a publicly traded company. Like it or not the grading business is headed into the post mature period of its marketing cycle. Many of the better “classic coins” have been graded. The only way to expand their business and keep the stockholders happy is for PCGS to run specials (a.k.a. marketing gimmicks) with modern coins or water down their grading standards to induce crack out artists to submit their formerly slabbed classic coins to them. Otherwise, the supply of really nice raw coins is shrinking and so is the market for their services.

 

Slabbing as a concept is not headed for extinction, but the “bad old days” when you had to know how to grade to survive in numismatics are coming back. You never could be stupid and buy coins going by the grade on the slab. But today you chances of getting a fair deal by buying coins that way are becoming more and more remote.

 

 

[DC Dawg]

If their combined reference sets for coins and stamps is valued at $62,000 they ain't got much.

There is no way in heck that I will believe a grading set reflective of all the coins that PCGS and NGC grade could cost just $62,000, even fifteen years ago. That's an absurd figure, and therefore, I do not believe it. $62,000 might not even cover just the Morgan dollars necessary to comprise a comprehensive reference set of business strikes and proofs, from AG all the way through MS/PF-69.

 

The $62,000 figure is pure nonsense.

It might be a "nonsense" number because it could be the face value of the holdings. While I am not an accountant and do not play one on television but the bean counters may be counting them as beans and not their intrinsic values. If you counted their value, there may be a tax liability when the value goes up. So if they own 100 Morgan Dollars, the value of the reference set will be $100.

 

Scott

[MikeKing]

I have to hand it to her, she is not only right on, but sticks to her guns, and is refining the verbiage and her approach...all the more to her. She's not afraid, and obviously cares passionately about this aspect of numismatics, as a dealer.

[michael]

I have to hand it to her, she is not only right on, but sticks to her guns, and is refining the verbiage and her approach...all the more to her. She's not afraid.