You own a grading company and learn that someone has altered coins....

[MarkFeld]

The scenarios below are based only partly upon real life events, but I think they bring up difficult issues which grading companies must face from time to time.

 

Scenario A:

You are the owner of a grading company and over a period of time learn that several coins submitted on the same invoice a year ago have taken on a changed appearance in their holders. For purposes of this discussion, let's say that there is now clear and convincing evidence (based upon the coins' appearances) that they had either been puttied or artificially frosted. But you don't know who actually did it. Do you contact the original submitter and if so, what do you say to him and what actions, if any, do you take? If he denies any wrong doing, do you drop it then and there?

 

Scenario B:

Same as above, but you have been told by a collector or dealer whose word is as good as gold, that they overheard the submtting dealer bragging that he had puttied or artificially frosted the coins. What do you say to him and what actions, if any, do you take?

 

Scenario C:

You catch a submitting dealer in the act of puttying or artificially frosting coins that are being written up on a grading invoice for submission to your grading company. He can't/doesn't even deny it. What do you say to him and what actions do you take?

 

Specifically, do you handle the situation privately/quietly, so as not to worry/scare the public and/or embarrass yourself? Or, do you widely publicize the situation, calling attention to the culprit, reassuring buyers and sellers that you are on top of the problem and let everyone know you are dead serious about such wrong doing?

[Big Daddy]

Is there any way to possibly red flag the registartion number of the specific slab so if anyone calls concerning the graders notes on the specific coin or if it is registered in someone elses name. Thereby making up a reason for the person to send in the coin for reslabbing, then once regraded clearing the grading company of being responsible for a bogus grade and saving you from being accused of slander. Just my opinion.

[coinman1794]

A: buy the coins back (assuming you have a guarrantee in place) and be more carefull in the furture.

 

B: Inform the submitter that you are aware that puttied and artificially frosted coins were found in his invoice last time, and that they will not be graded in the furture. Word of mouth isn't solid evidence at this point, so it is hard to say whether or not to drop him as a client. Keep an eye on his coins.

 

C: Drop the client as a submitter. A service that is really on top of things should alert people that some problem coins may have been graded, and that their grade guarrantee will apply for any coins still out there that may have been altered. There is no reason to broadcast the culprit's identity, although, honestly, it woulnd't hurt if the word got out.

 

An important underlying point is that the service missed the problem in the first place. Some of these things are really hard to spot at first, so its understandable that stuff can get through, but the service needs to bare the burden of their oversight in such a case. Its hard, but not impossible to spot these alterations.

[gmarguli]

Scenario A:

You are the owner of a grading company and over a period of time learn that several coins submitted on the same invoice a year ago have taken on a changed appearance in their holders. For purposes of this discussion, let's say that there is now clear and convincing evidence (based upon the coins' appearances) that they had either been puttied or artificially frosted. But you don't know who actually did it. Do you contact the original submitter and if so, what do you say to him and what actions, if any, do you take? If he denies any wrong doing, do you drop it then and there?

 

If they deny it, let it go. You have no proof and it is very possible that they submitted the coins for a customer or fellow dealer or perhaps they purchased them altered and did not catch it. After all, the TPG didn't catch it, so it is very possible this is the case.

 

 

Scenario B:

Same as above, but you have been told by a collector or dealer whose word is as good as gold, that they overheard the submtting dealer bragging that he had puttied or artificially frosted the coins. What do you say to him and what actions, if any, do you take?

 

Flag their account so the next submissions can be screened a little more carefully. Do not prevent them from submitting the coins as the coins will still go into the TPG, but just thru another dealer and you'll have less protection.

 

 

Scenario C:

You catch a submitting dealer in the act of puttying or artificially frosting coins that are being written up on a grading invoice for submission to your grading company. He can't/doesn't even deny it. What do you say to him and what actions do you take?

 

Specifically, do you handle the situation privately/quietly, so as not to worry/scare the public and/or embarrass yourself? Or, do you widely publicize the situation, calling attention to the culprit, reassuring buyers and sellers that you are on top of the problem and let everyone know you are dead serious about such wrong doing?

 

You ask the dealer to stop submitting altered coins. Flag their account as above. Take no more action against the dealer as they'll only move their submissions thru another dealer and make it harder on you.

 

You handle the situation privately. The TPG doesn't need the bad noise and you'll only *spoon* off the dealer who very well might bring up many embarrassing moments in the TPGs history.

 

My above answers would likely change depending on what was being done to the coins.

[Oldtrader3]

I would ask him politely to take his business down the road, permanently! This sort of misbehavior will come back on the grading service's reputation eventually, but not the crooked dealer who will be far removed from the scene by the time the coins are cracked out and exposed as having being manipulated. I have a few coins (purchased from major dealers and national auctions) that were expertly manipulated (puttied and/or smoked to cover cleaning).

 

It makes me extremely upset both to have purchased and to own these coins. I have kept them because I will not mislead others by selling them as legitimate (they are now in NCS slabs. I am sure that the dealers whom I bought these from, did not know they had been altered. This is the view from the collector end of things.

[DonHeath]

In scenario A and B, I'd buy the coins back and silently flag the submitter for additional scrutiny of future submissions. I'd make sure to err on the side of caution for this submitter. In scenario C, I'd revoke submission privileges.

[rrantique]

Am I missing something here? Aren't most of the dealers members of the PNG. Are they not subject to ethics? Why not report them? And yes i think they should be hung out to dry. I think the ANA and the whole numismatic community ought to be informed.

Things like this should have a prison term. That would be a deterrent for me. Just asked Mr Noe. The hobby as whole will suffer if there are no ethics involved. And Sorry for the rant. I will get off the soap box now.

[Oldtrader3]

This is, in reality, a slippery slope. Sometimes PNG will take action, but not against many dealers who are ANA/PNG dealers and sell overgraded junk in Coin World ads each week, year after year.

 

One of the coins that I had the worst experience with was a raw dollar purchased from a to-be-President of the ANA who gave me a grade quarantee on the coin and would not honor the quarantee. I was wary of the coin's surfaces but could not see them through the heavy toning. I paid sheet+ for the coin and ate it!

[michael]

the below is the real world and now you know why i am NOT a professional coin dealer in it for profit and/or are NOT involved in any grading companies as this is the real world and i would always do the right thing so i would not be grading or in business very long

 

but if i was dealing in coins for a profit or doing grading for profit this is what i would HAVE TO do if i wanted to stay in business

 

Scenario A:

 

 

you send all the coins back to the current owners that sent them into your service for buy backs and tell them the coins are market acceptable OR you somewho medigate your losses legally where you try to pay as little as possible

 

you now know who the original doctor is and when he or his friends send anything in for grading you bodybag and/or grade to a number where it does not help the submitter anymore with profit

 

Scenario B:

same as scenerio A OR you just stick your head in the sand

 

 

Specifically, do you handle the situation privately/quietly, so as not to worry/scare the public and/or embarrass yourself???? yes yes yes yes yes also you stick your head in the sand and admit nothing to anyone

 

Or, do you widely publicize the situation, calling attention to the culprit, reassuring buyers and sellers that you are on top of the problem and let everyone know you are dead serious about such wrong doing? NEVER NOT IN A MILLION YEARS AS THIS WILL MAKE YOU GO OUT OF BUSINES AND APPEAR WEAK AND SINCE GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE AND AMBUGIOUS AND NO STANDARDS WAHTSOEVER WHO REALLY CARES as lots of money blinds many grading men and selling coins for profit coin peddlers not all of course but the vast majority

[michael]

NOW I WILL TELL YOU IF SOMEONE FORSED ME TO BE IN THE COIN GAME MARKET FOR PROFIT WITH SELLING OR GRADING

 

ult issues which grading companies must face from time to time.

 

Scenario A:

You are the owner of a grading company and over a period of time learn that several coins submitted on the same invoice a year ago have taken on a changed appearance in their holders. For purposes of this discussion, let's say that there is now clear and convincing evidence (based upon the coins' appearances) that they had either been puttied or artificially frosted. But you don't know who actually did it. Do you contact the original submitter and if so, what do you say to him and what actions, if any, do you take? If he denies any wrong doing, do you drop it then and there?

 

I TELL HIM YOU HAVE TO TELL ME WAHT AND WHY AND WHERE YOU GOT THESE COINS my actions since it seems i cant prove it in court i tell him he can no longer submit and he is not welcome on my chat coin boards room and i do not want to see his rat face again..... and do all in my power and resourses to investigate him and look for evidence and careful he does mnot submit under an alias or friends almost but not quite impossible but i can still try

 

never drop it as for me failure is IMPOSSIBLE in dealing with these rats

 

Scenario B:

Same as above, but you have been told by a collector or dealer whose word is as good as gold, that they overheard the submtting dealer bragging that he had puttied or artificially frosted the coins. What do you say to him and what actions, if any, do you take?

 

i get the person whot old me to help me press civil and criminal charges against this person and talk to an attorney and see what i can legally do and also in more subtle ways legally of course make his actions and name aware to most and put actions to any and every numismatic organization i can weather he is a member or not and of couse i never will accept any submissions from him or his rat friends or compadries

 

Scenario C:

You catch a submitting dealer in the act of puttying or artificially frosting coins that are being written up on a grading invoice for submission to your grading company. He can't/doesn't even deny it. What do you say to him and what actions do you take?

 

i take immediate legal actuion to the fullest extent of the law and he is banned for life from grading and also i keep being proactive on this as much as i can and i inform the coin news media as such with an attroneys hel-p to make sure of how far i can go with this information and proof in publication to make everyone aware even those collecting in the far reaches of inner mongoliaandthe artic circle

 

 

 

Specifically, do you handle the situation privately/quietly, so as not to worry/scare the public and/or embarrass yourself? Or, do you widely publicize the situation, calling attention to the culprit, reassuring buyers and sellers that you are on top of the problem and let everyone know you are dead serious about such wrong doing?

 

as public as i can get and i am on top of the problem and i am dead serious

 

 

thats if i ran a grading company.................

 

which will most probably will never happen in my lifetime

[just-john]

If the dealer was braging about decieving me and my company and depending on the extent of damage to my rep or my pocket book.One of two things would happen very much under cover and in slience.Body bag all submissions or slab with details of problem and a letter explaining Iwas aware of his game OR in the dead of the night send him on a vacation trip

to visit James Hoffa

[Keleum]

I would hope that the grading business has gotten sophisticated enough to have a forgery department that deals with situations just like these. I would think the TPGs would buy back quite a few, quietly ,so they can train their staff.

 

The TPGs should have a close, but tight-lipped relationship with the appropriate authorities FBI and Treasury. I'm sure there's rings and gangs of these folks that require a more serious intervention than a business can do. There was another posting here about some pension fraud, I would expect TPGs to be up on that too.

 

As for black-listing a dealer. That's exactly why I expect said dept, so it's not personal, just business. They would treat info from the owner, just like any other source and have guidelines on when to flag the account and when to involve the authorities.

[chinook]

I know of a few who are no longer "allowed" to submit coins under their own name. There are many ways to get around this. There isnt much a TPG can do.

[IGWT]

I'd demand a cut of the action, and it would be a lot more than the regular grading fee.

[gmarguli]

I know of a few who are no longer "allowed" to submit coins under their own name. There are many ways to get around this. There isnt much a TPG can do.

 

At one show I was sitting on the dealer side behind the cases. The dealer in the booth directly behind was filling out many submission invoices. He is a well known "artist". The dealer I was with (who is a "friend" of the other dealer) made a comment of "Too bad you can't get any of your coins through under your own account". The dealer responded that "Some still get through. They still like my work". Turns out the forms had many different dealer numbers on them and he was going to drop the submissions off so other dealers could submit them and it'd look like they were coming in from all over the country.

 

The dealer was basically using a network of other dealers located all across the country to submit his coins. While a real invoice mixed with several AT coins might go in under his dealer ID and a couple AT get slabbed, most of his work went in under other dealers.

 

I was later told by someone from one of the grading services that they are aware of the network, but that there really isn't anything they can do.

[coinman1794]

They could at least bag the coins, I hope!

[leeg]

When all is said and done, all one has is their reputation. It may be good, it may be bad, but it defines who you are and stays with you forever. It's very simple to have a good reputation, "do the right thing", money be damned. Anyone who's a known doctor needs to be banished from all aspects of the hobby.

[ldhair]

If I were the owner, my answer is about the same for A,B and C.

 

The first thing an owner needs to do is put a lid on the situation while time is given to investigate what's really going on.

 

I would bring in my key people and plan how to deal with it.

 

The submitter would not be contacted until all possible information could be gathered. Folks that know they are being watched seem to change their habits making it more difficult to gather that information.

 

I would flag the account and want him to keep submitting for a while.

With all this information in hand I would either drop it while keeping an eye on it or go directly to the submitter with some of the facts and ask for an answer. It's always cool to hold back the good stuff until it's needed.

 

The legal part of this is where I get lost. Is it criminal (to me it is) and could one prove the submitter had knowledge of that? I just don't know much about this area of the laws.

 

Next is the legal issue of going public. If you use names you must be ready to spend the money to defend against a suit. In many cases I feel it's worth it for a company to stand up and say this is wrong. It's great PR and it helps keep others from following the same path.