Ahhhh....The Power of Cheese!

[TomB]

Kind of an odd title for a thread about coins, don't you think? Anyway, if any of you have seen that series of commercials where people will do just about anything to obtain cheese once they see it, then you may know what I am getting at.

 

Two years ago I went to a local show and one dealer was selling Wayte Raymond holders with year sets in them. The sets were from the '50s and none of them were particularly attractive save for the '52 set. He had had the sets for over a year and no one was interested in them because they weren't official US Mint Sets. I bought one set and paid less than half the Greysheet price for a '52 US Mint Set. The coins were all toned but I bought it for one exceptional coin that was included. It was a '52-S quarter that was extremely frosty and had some peripheral, colorful toning on the obverse. The only problem with the coin was that there was a light, yet definitely there, pinscratch traveling vertically down the eagle's right wing. Upon a quick glance it might have been missed, but looking at the coin with any care would reveal its existance.

 

I brought the '52 year set home, removed the '52-S quarter and replaced it with another '52-S quarter that I owned and that was toned (though not as nicely) and sold the year set on ebay. The year set sold for good money and the guy who bought it was interested in the half dollars and couldn't care about the quarters.

 

This quarter was then put on my web site, with a decent scanned image, and sat there in inventory for over a year while no one asked about it. In my opinion, the coin was easily MS66 and might sneak by as MS67 if the reverse scratch was not noticed. Therefore, I had it slabbed by PCGS where it graded MS66. That was fine. It was then listed on my site for about three times as much money, since it was in a holder and I liked the coin, and it still did not elicit a response. Please note that my site does not generate much traffic so I realize that a lack of business is not necessarily indicative of no interest in the coin, however, I also brought the coin to every show I did and had it displayed in my case each time. It was also offered to many dealers at every large, east coast show. No one wanted it. I truly do not know why as it is an extremely nice coin.

 

It was finally sold in March as part of a group of coins I was selling at the Baltimore show. I did very well on the coin considering that I was only into it for a grading fee. In the September Long Beach Signature Sale there is a lot being offered by Heritage that caught my eye because it's that coin. The lot is 6921 and it is described as

Superb mint luster and mostly brilliant with a deep accent of rainbow iridescence at the top and bottom of the obverse. An exceptional coin with dynamic mint luster and strong eye appeal.

I can't really argue with the description, although, as I mentioned earlier, I seem to recall a definite wing length scratch going through the eagle's right wing. This scratch is not visible in the images and is the reason why I think the coin went MS66 when I submitted it. It's also the reason why I thought the coin truly did not deserve the MS67 grade that it now has.

 

The coin will now likely sell for about $400, give or take a few dollars. I have no problems with that. What bothers me a little is that I don't see the scratch anywhere in the wing, neither do I see a mention of it in the description. This leaves three options. The first is simply that both PCGS and Heritage missed it when the coin was graded and described. This seems plausible as this was a scratch that, while long, could have been missed with a quick look. The second is that I am incorrect in my memory of this coin. While this is possible I would not think it to be the case since I remember how much that mark bothered me. Lastly, might it be possible that the scratch was somehow "fixed", "reduced", "ameliorated", "rehabilitated" or "conserved"? Choose the word you prefer. I don't know that that is the case, it is, however, clearly the same coin I owned.

 

So, what's the point of this post? I'm not really certain that there is a single, cogent issue. If the scratch is how I remember it then one might take the lesson that internet images might not be your best friend when bidding on coins, especially if the descriptions are incomplete. If the scratch has been worked on then that opens up a new can of worms and I am in no position to say that that has happened. Remember, I could be wrong in my memory. I guess one thing that fascinates me is that this scenario has been played out more than once with coins I have owned.

 

That is, I offer coins that are both raw and slabbed and almost always the raw coins are ignored while the slabbed coins are purchased. In fact, I have stopped listing raw coins altogether on my site and only occassionally put them out at shows. This coin was obtained by me essentially for free since the dealer who had the year sets never looked at the coins. I offered it raw for about $60 with the description of the scratch and the statement that it was at least an MS66 and it never sold. I had it slabbed as MS66 and sold it to a dealer for approximately $150 after it languished for a year on my site and in my case. Now, it is in an MS67 holder and will generate two to three times the last selling price. It's the same coin today, barring any "conservation", that it was in March when it was in an MS66 holder and no one wanted it. It's the same coin today as it was in my inventory when it was raw and no one bought it. It's the same coin today as it was when it was part of a year set no one wanted.

 

The best thing I can write is that in order to protect yourself in numismatics you should have some knowledge and should pay attention to the coin and not the holder as well as taking the time to look at raw coins. If people had done that then any number of folks could now own this coin for a fraction of what it will sell for.

[crito]

It's a familiar story. In the last couple of years on the boards, I've probably heard the same thing from a dozen different people. Seems it's always toned silver or red copper, though. Which leads me to believe it's the eye appeal factor that's the most subjective. Much less wiggle room with strike, marks and luster.

 

[andy007]

I am not sure if this is a scratch, but there looks like something(might even be the eagle's wing definition) on the eagle's left wing I doubt it is what you are talking about or anything at all, but I did get to play with Paint for a little while

 

Link to Reverse Scratch???

 

 

[classicalman-migration]

Tom, that's a really nice looking quarter! But hey, don't give up on the raw coins. Maybe I need to send you a "short" list of my needs for my type set, and see what you can come up with "in the raw". I prefer most of mine that way for my set. There is a bending of the light on the left wing but maybe that wasn't it....

[Leothelion]

The eagle's facing the right wing, is that correct?

 

The Power of (cutting the) Cheese! I'm glad no one was around me this morning while at work out on the golf course! Must of been the bbq and bean sandwiches I ate last night, whew wee!

 

Leo

[gmarguli]

If I remember I will take a look at this coin during Long Beach and see if there is a scratch on the wing and report if I think it has been worked on.

[EVillageProwler]

I'm not really certain that there is a single, cogent issue.

 

Cogent? Definately not!

 

[edited to add: J/K, Tom. Wouldn't want you to get your hair all in a tussle!]

 

I probably shouldn't comment too much on the matter of images, but I'm sure that just about all of us knows that images can be manipulated. However, it's nice to have this caveat reinforced every now and again with a real life example.

 

IMO, Crito also makes a good point about the importance of eye appeal. In this biz, much is subjective: grading, valuation, toning, yada, yada, yada. Naturally, this includes eye appeal. It seems to me that many (most?) of the other subjective factors matter less when there is strong eye appeal.

 

How many times have you seen a liner due to a mark or hairline, yet has such incredible eye appeal that it is given the benefit of the doubt? Or, of vibrantly toned coins that are so attractive that no one cares if they're A or N?

 

If a coin looks gorgeous and fresh, then why fuss over the other minutiae that will always be subjective?

 

Of course, what I just wrote is anathema to the purists among us!

 

 

EVP

 

[TomB]

I got my hair cut last week! Now, I think I no longer look like Greg Brady!

 

Okay, perhaps cogent was not the best choice of wording, however, the post seemed short as I was typing it.

[EVillageProwler]

That's it. Greg Brady. I always wondered why you look so "familiar"... Or, a younger version of Mike Brady perhaps...

 

EVP

 

[jom]

I can also check the coin but since Greg has already mentioned it I'll do it just for the fun. And see if I can spot any "corrections" that were made on the coin. Should be a good education if the coin actually has been "conserved"...

 

jom

[MikeKing]

If you can take a look at that coin, that would be real interesting.

I purchased a Sesqui from Bowers and Merena that had a scratch accross Washington's jaw that was not visible in their photo. When I recieved the coin I was pissed. I went back to look at the photo and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see that scratch.

 

Then, one day I photographed the Sesqui. The scratch didn't show up in the photo. I studied it, and discovered that if you looked head on at that coin, you couldn't see the scratch at all. If you tilted it but a few degrees, suddenly it appeared and no matter how you held that coin, the scratch was there...except head on.

 

Wierd.

 

 

[MikeKing]

I might have failed at my attempt to isolate the spot where I think the scratch is, but if this (running up and down through the more mid to proximal part of the R wing) is it, let me know.

[Leothelion]

Can the scratch be seen in this pic? See attachment!

 

Leo

[Leothelion]

Hi Mike

I was centering on the thin line that runs from 1:00 to 7:00 with a slight downward bow.... just to the upper right of your area in the lighter area of the right wing. I saw what you are suggesting but I thought it was too obvious.

 

Leo

[michael]

i absolutely love this thread and i also love cheese

 

swiss cheese

 

but i do not like this washington cheese as it is way maxed out in its current holder and was missed by the service/or they need more higher grade washingtons for the demand and to keep pcgs marketshare alive a combo of a gradeing error/politics??

 

also i know someone that had a coin an early proof washington quarter with the most outrageous original blue yellow original proof set haze to the coin

 

the eye appeal was dynomite the coin had absolutely no hairlines/marks on it at all the coin was a no brainer proof 68 coin

 

but it had a scratch in the right obverse field and was kind of hidden in the toning you had to tilt the coin the right way in the right light to see it!!

 

but it was still there and for me this coin is at best a proof 65??

 

pcgs graded the coin three/4? years ago as a proof 66!!

 

 

a gift really

 

well exactly 11 months ago in spetember 2002 the coin was resubmitted for an upgrade in the holder and it got the proof 67

 

and yet this coin has this no brainer scratch in the right field on the obverse of the coin!!!!

 

and the current owner is going to resubmit the coin for a proof68!!

 

which it might get if they miss this scratch again!!

 

so i guess for me i am not surprised by tomb coin in the ms67 holder i will be more surprised if the lucky (most probably internet buyer) even sees the scratch when he/she gets it! and if he/she does it really doesnot matter as it is hidden and is in the "right" holder and is one of the current most rabid popular coins currently liquid in this market!

 

well such is the coin chili "con" carni game

 

michael

 

 

 

[michael]

a really delicious and tasty thread

 

 

but will the taste be good when eventually the end owner of this coin will have to "eat" it when the demand subsides for this coin? and then it will be looked at more critically???

 

well the taste might not be too good for the end owner as he might have to "eat" this coin

 

or pass it along to another lucky end user

 

 

michael

[jom]

Then, one day I photographed the Sesqui. The scratch didn't show up in the photo. I studied it, and discovered that if you looked head on at that coin, you couldn't see the scratch at all. If you tilted it but a few degrees, suddenly it appeared and no matter how you held that coin, the scratch was there...except head on.

 

A few weeks ago I went thru an exhausting exercise to photograph many of my coins. I can assure you that depending on the direction of the light source AND the type of light source used scratches can appear and disappear at will! Actually, it's not really done on purpose. It is just how the shot turns out especially if you have a LOT of coins to do (like an auction) because you simply do NOT have the time to take to make sure every little scratch shows up. And since scratches come in different sizes and in different directions it is impossible to catch them all in a picture. Of course, the more "clever" sellers could manipulate the photo to their benefit but that takes a lot of time to do....

 

I hope to remember to take a look at this coin when I sit at the Heritage viewing table at LB. I don't usually look at Washingtons but since TomB pointed this out I'm curious as hell now....

 

jom

[chinook]

I dont understand how a coin with a scratch can grade 66 in the first place. I have had coins bodybagged that had tiny scratches. I have a 1797 $10 whith very light toned-over scratches graded VF by anacs whereby they note on the holder "scratched". What do you expect from a 200+ year old circulated coin?! IMHO a coin with a scratch cannot grade any higher than 64 no matter what the toning. If it really looks nice then let the market determine its value, but dont put some inflated number on it. A coin with a scratch certainly cannot be "virtually as struck"

[Oldtrader3]

I think that you have described a basic flaw with selling coins via pictures on the internet. The Washington Quarter scratch is a good example of how by changing the viewing or pictoral angle slightly, superficial scratches can be made to appear and disappear. I have been surprised several times over the years with coins that I bought in an auction. What I got certainly was not what I saw online or in the catalog.

[jom]

I dont understand how a coin with a scratch can grade 66 in the first place.

 

Because, theoretically, there are other attributes of the coin that raise it to that grade. About this piece in particular, I don't know...TomB would however.

 

jom

[keithdagen]

If you can take a look at that coin, that would be real interesting.

I purchased a Sesqui from Bowers and Merena that had a scratch accross Washington's jaw that was not visible in their photo. When I recieved the coin I was pissed. I went back to look at the photo and no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't see that scratch.

 

Then, one day I photographed the Sesqui. The scratch didn't show up in the photo. I studied it, and discovered that if you looked head on at that coin, you couldn't see the scratch at all. If you tilted it but a few degrees, suddenly it appeared and no matter how you held that coin, the scratch was there...except head on.

 

Wierd.

 

 

Mike,

 

I have a coin with the opposite problem. My Flowing Hair half has a scratch that is only seen on my scan that I have of the coin. Holding the coin at any other angle, you do not see the mark, only when the coin is laid flat on a scanner.

[TomB]

I'm quite happy with the discussion that this topic is generating. At first I was worried that it would turn into a "let's look for the scratch" thread and that worried me as you cannot see the scratch in the image. This was also the case when I scanned the coin and put it up on my web site. I had to write in the description that there was a scratch that was not visible in the image so that any potential buyer would not be negatively surprised.

 

I understand the hesitance that some have for grading a coin with a scratch as MS66 in the first place but I look at this in terms of how the coins are graded and not how they should be graded. This piece has a decent strike for a '52-S and also has the frosty luster that these era S mint coins are known for. The open fields are fairly clean and the eye appeal, the "curb" appeal is positive. These characteristics put together, in the absence of the scratch, would make an MS67 coin. However, the only way I can see this coin in this holder right now is if the graders simply flipped the coin over quickly, noted there were no marks on the eagle's breast or knees, and then graded the coin without giving it more attention. I think it was an honest mistake as I don't think the coin deserves the MS67 grade.

 

One thing to note, though, is that it is becoming quite a bit easier to obtain MS67 silver Washingtons. I remember a few years ago I would submit some smokers and they would come back MS66. You typically had to have a really special coin to get an MS67. I agree with that tight standard. At least in my case I kept most of the smokers that received MS66 grades.

[gmarguli]

One thing to note, though, is that it is becoming quite a bit easier to obtain MS67 silver Washingtons. I remember a few years ago I would submit some smokers and they would come back MS66. You typically had to have a really special coin to get an MS67. I agree with that tight standard. At least in my case I kept most of the smokers that received MS66 grades.

 

Agreed. It was unheard of to have one in MS68. However, as we all know the grading services need to keep submissions coming so now MS67s are common and MS68s are not unheard of.

 

And who says grading standards don't change.

[jom]

was also the case when I scanned the coin and put it up on my web site.

 

I misread your post then. I was hoping to see a "conserved" coin when I went to look at this at LB. It is probable that the scratch is still there and it simply doesn't show up on the picture. At this point, then, it comes down to why Heritage, or more likely the owner, did EXPLAIN that in the description. Well, we all know why but all I can say is do NOT buy coins without seeing them in person....obviously.

 

jom

[Leothelion]

Post deleted by Kingofthejungle

[IrishMike]

Leo that link was not funny, alert to others do not open.

[MikeKing]

Leo, I wish you deleted that post before I took a look. What did that thing do to my computer?

[jom]

What was Leo's post? I tried it before he deleted but it never came through. Was it a virus of some sort or, hopefully, just a BAD joke?

 

Just curious...

 

jom

[michael]

let us know when and if this coin sells and if it does for how much? including the juice

 

michael

[IrishMike]

Jom, I got some obnoxious music and popups that tried to freeze up my computer.