Is PCGS intentionally trying to drive themselves into the ground?

[jom]

They guarantee grade, what is their official policy and/or liability on making an attribution mistake?

 

Appearently, there is none. In fact, I've seen PCGS react the very same way when they mess up a grade by saying it's a "labeling" error or other such non-sense. So it appears their grade "guarentee" is bogus also.

 

jom

[barberlover-migration]

I am not a "kiss [!@#%^&^]" for anyone!!!

 

I like pcgs, and I'll defend them when I think they are right, but I will also speak out when I think they are wrong, if anyone wants to list my responce on that thread they mave my permission to do so here.

 

Also feel free to list my question to David on March 2oth, as well as his answer which I feel is directly related.

 

Les

[EVillageProwler]

Uh, Les, to whom are you responding? It seems a bit of a surprise that you'd come here and defend yourself for a reason I've yet to determine.

 

Of course, you are welcome to post however you like. I'm merely asking because I am confused and would prefer not being confused.

 

EVP

 

[Leothelion]

The congregation there treats DH like a god because their waiting for a handout in some form of a pop top money making coin or a big rise in the registry. Maybe that's what barberlover's referring to but I could be wrong.

 

Leo

[Tradedollarnut]

So in this situation a small dealer pays too much for a coin that was probably crossed with pedigree and then the important client freaks out because he can't find the coin plated and returns the coin. Not an unusual situation and one where I highly doubt I'd be interested in participating financially if I was a grading service. Especially if there are multiple unplated examples in the same sale!

 

I doubt neither PCGS nor NGC really want to get into Pedigree policing. The idea that a pedigree adds significantly to the market value of the coin is abnormal. Just because one buyer is willing to spend twice market value for a pedigree does not automatically kick in the guarantee at that level - after all, some "collector" spent $40k on a common date proof cent from the 60's! Guarantee level on that baby is probably $100. So even if there was some sort of guarantee to apply here, it really should only be 5-10% or so of the market value of the coin.

[Leothelion]

But PCG$ doesn't hesitate to pencil in these ridiculous prices into their coin price lists so I think they should be liable.

 

Leo

[barberlover-migration]

EVP, here is what I meant, I think some people here lump together everyone who mainly posts on the other side. I took no personnel offense in the sense that I thought that I was being singled out, rather the offense I took was the implication that most of us in the other forum kiss up to David Hall or pcgs

and thats what I read into what some people have said here [as well as on other threads].

 

My invitation to post what I said in responce to Jade coins thread as well as my question to David on March 20th was meant to show not all of us kiss up to anyone.

 

The lumping together [!@#%^&^] sometimes gets boring which ever side of the street it's coming from.

 

Les

[Oldtrader3]

My problem with the other side is the PCGS Godhead Phallic worship syndrome of PCGS adherants over any other service. I was called "insane" by some jerk over there for calling him on using manipulated PCGS/NGC MS70 numbers. This person also uses his personal references to religion as his byline (maybe he has been ordained Archbishop of the John Denver, Coin Synod of the Universe) in order to add some sort of credibility to his put downs and name calling.

 

Plus, his moniker intimates some power base that may or may not be ficticious. He doesn't know me from a pot of seagull [!@#%^&^]. So where he thinks his little Christian moral terptitude plays are going to get him, is beyond me. Except to make me think that think that he is full-of-the afore mentioned sea-gull [!@#%^&^], plus a smart mouth, given to put down and rudeness.

 

I did not come over here to complain about him or the site. I told him basically the same thing that I am saying here to his face. A few people over there think that they are the annointed ones and that attitude is pure unadulterated [!@#%^&^]. They ridicule, they bully, they name call, they discredit, they display the one of the worst of human traits, which is pulling yourself up by stepping on the backs of and discrediting others. Although I know that some people perceive this as the ambition of "getting ahead at all costs". I perceive it as animalistic, rude behavior.

 

I really don't give a damn about how rich these people are or how important they think they are. Most are blowhards and it will be a long but inevitable fall from grace for most of them!!!

[rkkay-migration]

Interestingly, I first mentioned the disparity in PR 70 state quarter pops to get people to look at the tiny numbers over there. The faithful took it as an invitation to bash NGC.

[michael]

ah yes it is all about what it says on the holder that is the ultimate importance

not the coin itself

 

and when the above happens there maybe can be a great chance of a problem

 

next time if you buy a coin in a holder and then deside to sell it to someone else

 

just look at the coin and deside what the coin is worth to you let the coin stand on its own merits not at all on what the holder says or whose holder it is in

 

if you cant do that then do not buy/sell the coin!!!!!

 

always

 

sell the coin for the coin

 

if someone wants to sell/buy a coin and base the price of the coin on the plastic around it/and the words printed on the holder

 

that is okie that is great nothing wrong with that!!!!

 

but then

 

 

*************let the seller/buyer beware***********

 

 

michael

[michael]

you have caused your own grief/problems

 

when you rely on the plastic around the holder and the words printed on the holder

 

next time examine the coin itself without regard to plastic surrounding the holder and the information printed on the holder

 

make a decision based on that then i think you will have far less problems than the other way around!

 

and if you rely on the holder and what is printed on the holder great!!!!!

 

just let the buyer/seller beware as for me you are basically driving a car with a blindfold on

 

verify for yourself what you think the coin is make the decision for yourself just based on the coin nothing else

no plastic nor words on the piece of paper contained therein on the plastic

 

again if not then let the buyer beware

 

michael

 

 

[TonerGuy]

Michael -- while your sentiments might be noble and worthy, the world just doesn't work in the manner in which you would like it too. We live in a society that relies, we count on our mechanic to repair our car correctly, we assume the doctor has removed the sponge from our innards, we expect that our teachers won't molest our child. Otherwise we would fix our own cars, remove our own tumors and home school our child.

 

It would be nice to live in a world were there was only personality responsibility. We could never blame anyone else for our problems, only ourselves.

 

When a company or an individual sets forth and seeks out revenue by offering services, they do so at their peril, not ours. If you hold yourself out as an authority and a professional, others will come to respect your opinion. If you offer a guaranty and a warranty, people will consider that when purchasing your product or service. As a company, you cannot disavow the contract which induced others to utilize your services when you do not feel as though you should or want to pay for your errors.

 

These are long held and well established legal principles. This isn't brain surgery. It's rather simple. PCGS misattributed a coin. They offer pedigree service, they were paid to place the pedigree on that slab, for the sole purpose that it would increase value for the seller. PCGS benefited from the increased value, otherwise that coin could have been sold raw. By placing the pedigree on a coin that did not deserve it, someone was induced to purchase that coin, and to pay a significant premium. PCGS was well as possible others should and will be held accountable.

 

Come down from the ivory tower and join us.

 

Michael

 

[LucyBop]

Come down from the ivory tower and join us.

 

"Ivory Tower"

-Otis Williams and the Charms, Number 5 on the R&B charts, 1956.

[michael]

for me

 

it is a much different thing

 

a surgeon operating on a person where their quality of life even their life may be at stake

 

or a teacher teaching a child and this child in my opinion any child is worth more than all the pcgs coins put together

 

or a car where a mechanic is fixing that is someones transport to their livelyhood and where if not properly fixed it could cause severe damage or loss of life

 

yes guarantees and expectations are important very much so and responsibility is granted

and the child

the person getting operated on

the person getting the car fixed most probably is not in the profession that they are paying the services for

 

the above involves thousands of dollars for their opinions and services

 

 

coins on the other hand are a luxury item for rich people that anyone can do without and are basically worth face value or melt or less!

 

the person selling the coin sets themselves out to be a coin expert professional

 

as per the above not a good analogy or comparison

 

i might not be a smart rich attorney lettered doctor of the law like you

 

but there is no need to call me names or get mad at me and personally attack me for my thoughts

 

 

if you pay someone for their extremely subjective opinion for a coin the usual fee is like 30 dollars or so and they offer a subjective opinion at best at a thirty dollar price

 

and you are a dealer that sets yourself up as an expert and you have a buyer that is willing to pay way overmarket for a crappy coin

because of some words on a holder from a company that from past experience of many leaves well much to be desired and they also state it is their subjective opinion as such

 

then in my ivory tower opinion ( also no need to name call or make fun of people fratt if they hit your nerve and they did not attack you personally) that is just not polite or nice or fair

 

again in my ivory tower opinion if this dealer who is selling this coin to a client for way way WAY over market who is an expert in this field as a professional early american dealer doesnot not verify the opinion on the holder

 

all i said was let the buyer beware

 

and i guess in this case i was right sorry to say

 

just please do not take it out on me by judging me

 

if i hit a nerve i am sorry it was not personally against you

 

also fratt in ancient rome there were laws that you could own people that did not make it right either

 

also fratt if you think about it and i know i am most probably not as smart or as learned as yourself BUT

 

i think if a professional dealer is going to sell something for way over market value that is a no brainer overgraded coin to me in the holder and again i am not as smart and as learned as you and i can tell this

 

and not verify as such on the holder then for me

 

as i only said before let the buyer beware

 

michael

 

[EZ_E]

re: Frattlaw:

These are long held and well established legal principles. This isn't brain surgery. It's rather simple. PCGS misattributed a coin. They offer pedigree service, they were paid to place the pedigree on that slab, for the sole purpose that it would increase value for the seller. PCGS benefited from the increased value, otherwise that coin could have been sold raw. By placing the pedigree on a coin that did not deserve it, someone was induced to purchase that coin, and to pay a significant premium. PCGS was well as possible others should and will be held accountable.

 

 

I agree completely but if the grading service is unwilling to honor their guarantee, then what recourse is there? As I stated earlier on this thread, who is qualified to second guess the "professionals"? What kind of defense could be rendered? First off, anyone trying to get PCGS to make good on a guarantee without legal representation would be fighting a losing battle. I'm sure that PCGS would be vague and obtuse to the individual who is trying to make things square. Just how far is an individual willing to go? Most wouldn't think it worth the trouble, time and expense to face PCGS in all out war (except for maybe Greg Marguiles ).

 

I feel that PCGS should buy the mentioned coin on this thread for full price from the dealer who lost out. But, what is one's recourse? Basically, I think that grading service guarantee's are hollow at best, a mere resounding gong -- worthless and without substance.

[TonerGuy]

Michael --- I apologize if I somehow insulted you, the remark about ivory tower wasn't meant to be an insult as so much a compliment. I have read your posts and have seen the coins you enjoy and deal in. Most are spectacular. We are all not as learned as you are in numismatics. Most of us try to "buy the coin," but PCGS/NGC/ANACS was established so that you didn't need to have 30 years of experience before you felt comfortable purchasing a coin, for fear of being defrauded. Yes, even expert dealers utilize the writing on the slab when purchasing and selling coins. It is a industry practice and standard in the community.

 

My comment was centered around that point. You assume that everyone has your knowledge, we do not. We (those not as learned and in the numismatic ivory tower) have to avail ourselves of 3rd party grading services in order to assure ourselves of some purchases. It's unfortunate, but true. Some of us care about what the slab says, not so much that we are buying the slab, but we are buying what the slab represents. A guaranty, a warranty, a promise that someone with 30 years of numismatic experience has looked at that particular coin and has rendered an opinion as to its authenticity, its originality, its grade, and of course its pedigree.

 

My examples of doctors, teachers and mechanics do not fit this scenerio perfectly, but my point is that we do not all have the experience to perform certain tasks. This is why we live in a society and we are not cave dwellers anymore. Specialization of skills. It is what allows a society to exist and to prosper.

 

So again I apologize if I insulted you, I just believe that your expectations are more learned then pragmatic when it comes to this hobby and industry. Only the smartest get to live in the ivory tower though.

 

EZ_E -- The legal recourse would be to file suit for breach of warranty/guaranty. This would allow discovery to commence and you could then depose Mr.Hall and his team of authenticators/graders to see how they actually go about their business. Where did the mistake occur? How did it occur? If some lawyer was interprising enough, he might even do it as a class action.

 

There is recourse, but it would require a dealer or collector to fire the first shot.

 

Michael

[Tradedollarnut]

Just curious - since we're talking depositions and all - but where exactly does PCGS's [or NGC's for that matter] grade guarantee say anything at all about a Pedigree being guaranteed? Could you please point that out for me?

 

A pedigree on a slab is a convenience - a starting point for a collector to verify through his own methods if he should so choose. Nothing else. If people push this, then all pedigrees will be removed from slabs or an extra charge will be assessed for pedigree verification. Right now, if a top tier service slab is crossed over with pedigree, that pedigree is accepted. If that acceptance goes away, there will be many more angry people than this one small dealer. Can you imagine the howls of rightious indignation that will occur when "PCGS refuses to put Eliasberg on my coin's slab even though NGC pedigreed it right out of the sale... because I threw away my auction slip"!!!!!

[Tradedollarnut]

And here's the scene I really love when this goes to court:

 

[plaintiff's lawyer]...and my client was harmed when he bought this coin that was erroneously pedigreed.

 

[defendent's lawyer] Prove that the coin was erroneously pedigreed.

 

[plaintiff's lawyer] Well, obviously it was a huge mistake by PCGS because it doesn't match any of the plates in the catalog.

 

[defendent's lawyer] But there are unpictured lots of this type. Prove that the coin was erroneously pedigreed.

 

[plaintiff's lawyer] But those grades don't match the assigned grade of this coin. Therefore they can't be the same.

 

[defendent's lawyer] Grading is an art and not a science. I can provide thousands of examples where a coin was conservatively graded raw by B&M and subsequently graded higher upon submission to a third party graded service. Once again, please prove that the coin was erroneously pedigreed.

 

[plaintiff's lawyer] uhhhhh

 

[judge] I hereby award summary judgement to the defendant.

 

[dragon]

TDN,

 

Didn't PCGS pretty much admit the coin was not a Norweb pedigreed piece when they subsequently removed the pedigree from the tag, or was that simply done at the submittors request?

 

dragon

[Tradedollarnut]

Don't know the circumstances of the removal of the pedigree. But it's becoming more and more clear that the biggest error in the whole fiasco is that Jadecoin's client wanted PLATED Norweb coins - not just pedigreed Norweb coins. He loved the coin up until the point that he couldn't match it to a photo in the catalog. He loved it even tho Jadecoin informed him that it was overgraded and overpriced. But once it wasn't plated, he returned it. It didn't matter to him that it could have been one of the unplated AU coins [after all, they all agreed it was overgraded] and that it was still the same coin he loved before he looked it up. What was most important to the client is that the coin was plated in the catalog. Is it the grading company's fault that it's not? No - it's Jadecoin's fault, for not ensuring that the clients specific needs were met, or the client's fault for not communicating those specific needs.

[gmarguli]

Just curious - since we're talking depositions and all - but where exactly does PCGS's [or NGC's for that matter] grade guarantee say anything at all about a Pedigree being guaranteed? Could you please point that out for me?

 

A pedigree on a slab is a convenience - a starting point for a collector to verify through his own methods if he should so choose. Nothing else. If people push this, then all pedigrees will be removed from slabs or an extra charge will be assessed for pedigree verification. Right now, if a top tier service slab is crossed over with pedigree, that pedigree is accepted. If that acceptance goes away, there will be many more angry people than this one small dealer. Can you imagine the howls of rightious indignation that will occur when "PCGS refuses to put Eliasberg on my coin's slab even though NGC pedigreed it right out of the sale... because I threw away my auction slip"!!!!!

 

Where does the PCGS guarantee say anything about authenticity of a coin? Where does it say that the computer changes grades back to their original grade so PCGS doesn't have to pay? Where does their crossover service say that at best only the top 50% of coins will cross? Where does it say they will pay you a price that THEY want to and not a market price?

 

You can call it a "convenience" to put a pedigree on a slab, but I call it a service. Clearly a solid pedigree adds value to a coin. If PCGS is going to provide this service then they are going to be liable for screwing up. Maybe FrattLaw can chime in, but I seem to remember from my business law class that just because you don't charge extra for an "added service" you still are liable for screw-ups.

 

Forget about the grading guarantee. PCGS is proving more and more that it is a scam. If I were harmed in this case and PCGS refused to make good, I'd sue them. I'd pencil in David Hall's name on the suit and force him to go to small claims court. Like I said, forget about the PCGS guarantee, go after PCGS for failing to do their due diligence and for being negligent. Make it simple for the court. Nothing about overgrades and a 70-point grading scale. None of that. Simple: PCGS certified the item as X. Upon review by us it was not X. PCGS reviewed the coin and agreed it was not X. I want PCGS to pay for its mistake and make me whole again.

 

The suit might cost PCGS $1,500. The bad publicity from it could cost them a hundred or a thousand times more. Can you imagine the bad PR when the rags pick up the story that PCGS had to be sued in order to pay for its mistake.

[michael]

michael frattlaw

 

well i can see your point and i also apologise

 

but it is very worrysome to me to see knowledgable coin buyers/sellers that seem to rely on plastic and not their own judgment

 

or to use someones judgment whom they totally trust, which is especially uncommon to find in the coin game

 

and this i see is causing a really great rift as not a few but many!! pieces of plastic out there holds coins that are just well

not what the holder says it is! not even close

should not even be in a holder!!!

 

and knowledgable coin buyers/coin sellers are putting their faith in something that many times not all of the times but many times more than i feel comfortable with leaves much to be desired with greed clouding the judgments of many a knowledgable coin buyer/coin seller

 

and i think a judgment day is coming that will cause msany a wailing and nashing of teeth

 

maybe i am wrong! i usually am i hope so!

 

michael

[Tradedollarnut]

Greg: your ill will toward HRH is affecting your judgement in this matter. It cannot be proven that PCGS has committed any attribution error whatsoever. It is perfectly plausible that the coin is in fact an unplated Norweb coin. In fact, that is most likely to be the case since the top tier services require at least SOME evidence of pedigree [auction slip, matching plate, or other certification services insert].

 

I guess it's so much more fun to bash without hard evidence.

[gmarguli]

Greg: your ill will toward HRH is affecting your judgement in this matter. It cannot be proven that PCGS has committed any attribution error whatsoever. It is perfectly plausible that the coin is in fact an unplated Norweb coin. In fact, that is most likely to be the case since the top tier services require at least SOME evidence of pedigree [auction slip, matching plate, or other certification services insert].

 

I guess it's so much more fun to bash without hard evidence.

 

 

Bruce, my dislike for HRH has nothing to do with my feelings that PCGS should pay for its mistake. It's funny, but every time I criticize PCGS someone now says it is because of what happened. The odd thing is it was because I rightly criticized them that HRH blew a gasket and banned me. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Perhaps, just perhaps HRH runs PCGS like his [!@#%^&^] don't stink and he can do no wrong and he never has to admit or pay for his mistakes and I don't mind bashing him for this approach?

 

If NGC were the service that pedigreed the coin I'd expect them to pay up also. If they gave the same level of service to any customer because of this type situation, I'd be extremely disappointed AND vocal about it also. If you remember back when Mark Feld posed a question about a grading service that wouldn't pay for it's grade (designation) mistake and he said it was NGC (although hypothetically, but we all missed that point), I had no trouble expressing my displeasure with NGC handling this situation. Turns out it was actually PCGS that was refusing to honor its grading guarantee. I wonder if Mark ever got his $5400 from PCGS because of their error? But, my point being is if NGC does wrong I'd have no problem speaking up about that. The fact that it seems to be PCGS that I'm frequently speaking up about isn't a sign of my alleged bias, but rather the way each company is run. Can we assume that everyone who holds the same opinion as me about this situation is also biased? There sure seem to be a lot of people across the street that think PCGS should pay up for their mistake.

 

This coin might be one of the coins that was not pictured in the Norweb sale. If so then PCGS needs to go back and find out what evidence was used when the coin was originally submitted to prove the coin was from the Norweb collection. They are the experts, that stated something of fact that now may or may not be true and it cost the buyer a lot of money. Since they removed the pedigree I'm going to assume it is not true.

 

Just the very fact that they removed the pedigree is enough proof to me that it is either not a Norweb coin or that PCGS doesn't have any records to show that the coin was properly attributed when originally slabbed. Either way, it is their responsibility to make the owner whole again.

 

Are you believing that just because it might be a non-pictured Norweb coin that it is OK the way PCGS handled this situation and it is OK for them not to pay up? Some of my coins might be non-pictured coins from several famous sales. I guess it should be OK for me get them pedigreed as long as I can show a bill of sale? If all it is going to take is a bill of sale to prove pedigree then the services are opening themselves up to problems like this.

 

I might be bashing PCGS, but I think the facts are pretty straight:

1) PCGS slabbed the coin as a Norweb coin.

2) The owner of the coin can't find it in the Norweb catalog, but it might be one of the AUs that is now slabbed as MS64RD.

3) PCGS removed the Norweb pedigree from the slab, therefore giving their opinion that it is NOT a Norweb coin.

4) PCGS refuses to pay for its error yet again.

 

 

Also, the idea that some people have mentioned that this coin might have been pedigreed by another service and PCGS took their word for it is insane. Does PCGS take the word of another service that a coin is genuine or of a certain grade? Of course not, they do the work themselves to determine authenticity and grade. To have some people think that they shouldn't have done even a little work to prove a pedigree is puzzling.

[BushMan]

Also, the idea that some people have mentioned that this coin might have been pedigreed by another service and PCGS took their word for it is insane. Does PCGS take the word of another service that a coin is genuine or of a certain grade? Of course not, they do the work themselves to determine authenticity and grade.

 

Exactly!! How PCGS could provide the pedigree without doing their own research and verification or remove the pedigree with nothing more than a quick glance at an auction catalogue is beyond me. If Jadecoin reports that PCGS attempts to weasel out of compensating them, then this has certainly been a learning experience for this collector. I had hoped/expected to find a message from HRH posted to that thread this morning saying that the compensatory check was in the mail to Jadecoin. Every hour that goes by is costing them credibility.

 

 

[mark]

TDN:

 

I tend to disagree slightly with you. PCGS did commit at least one error--the coin was first encapsulated as a Norweb pedigree and then was encapsulated without a Norweb pedigree. At least one of the slabs must be wrong. If the coin is from the Norweb collection, then the second removing the pedigree and slabbing the coin without the pedigree is in error. If the coin is not from the Norweb collection, then the first slab is incorrect.

 

I also do not agree with your suggestion that Jadecoin's buyer wanted a plated Norweb coin. My reading is that the buyer wanted a Norweb coin but could not verify that the coin was, indeed, from the Norweb collection because it was not plated in the catalog.

 

All in all, I think PCGS should step forward and offer to pay a reasonable sum for their mistake. And here I agree totally with you that they don't need to pay a $40,000 modern DCAM PR70 sum of money but I think they do need to pay something.

 

Mark

 

Fratlaw: I LOVE your comment that "Only the smartest get to live in the ivory tower." Perhaps my love for this comment is a result of the fact I am a university professor??

 

Mark

[Leothelion]

Please excuse me, I just came from abroad.

 

Since this matter is such an audacity of custumer service on behalf of PCG$ , they have literally dropped the ball here by sheepishly returning Jadecoin's coin without an explaination. And how many times has PCG$ ignored the forums when they're in the hot seat, they NEVER respond! They never tell their side. Heck, Jadecoin hasn't bothered to responded here, which is really no big deal. Has he tried to contact them again? And what were the results, even if he were ignored again. So here's a suggestion, EVERYONE please give them a call concerning this matter, let's find out the rest of the story. I would call especially if I had predigree coins but I could care less but I would think to avoid all this beckering (which has been constructive and interesting), especially from where the problem originated....PCG$, everyone here and abroad should call and get the facts!

 

And for your convenience, here the info;

 

P.O. Box 9458 Newport Beach, CA 92658

Tele: (800) 447-8848 (949) 833-0600

info@xxxx.com

 

Besides calling, you can also write and/or send an email.

 

But it would help if Dennis/Jadecoin could give an update!

 

Leo

 

[EVillageProwler]

A couple of comments from this member of the peanut gallery:

 

1. Whatever the total liability of PCGS really is, we can certainly say that they made at least one mistake. That one mistake is either the adding of the Norweb pedigree or the removal of it. I think the company ought to put some research effort into the pedigree question. I.e., is this coin a Norweb coin, and why? It is bad simply to leave this question unanswered.

 

2. Maybe Greg is wrong on this issue, and maybe he is biased on this matter because of his banishment from over there. Or, maybe not. Only he really knows. But, I do get the sense that he is consistent in the way he thinks, and that it is likely that if thought this way about this issue now then likely he would've thought about this issue pre-banishment.

 

3. I know of one instance where I crossed a Byron Reed coin into a PCGS slab, and PCGS took the ANACS insert pedigree info as evidence. Granted, this was a chump coin (by my reckoning), and the Reed pedigree is a negative to silver coins!

 

4. I don't think many serious researchers consider a pedigree notation on a slab insert to be authoritative. It is, quite frankly, unverified information because there is no stated science or rigor to how the information got onto the insert. (I know that DWL requires plating for my more famous pedigrees, but NGC only cared about the auction tags for the chump coins.) It is easy to mess up the chain of custody.

 

5. I think TDN is correct in noting that Jade's client wanted a PLATED NORWEB coin, and was willing to pay funny money for it, and that Jade allowed it to happen as the agent. Were I PCGS, I'd only want to be minimally involved in the resolution of this matter as a nice, PR gesture. I would not want to be accountable for some collector out there who happens to have a woody for PLATED coins of a specific provenance!

 

6. Finally, what does authenticity really mean? PCGS clearly guarantees the authenticity of the coin in some sense...

 

EVP

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Points of fact:

 

1) The coin is pedigreed to the Norweb collection. Absent proof to the contrary, I accept this provenance because I know at some point some sort of proof of provenance was given in order to get it on the insert. The fact that it is not plated is NOT proof to the contrary.

 

2) PCGS will accept other company's inserts as proof of provenance. They will also accept expert testimony in certain cases. I'd be willing to bet that if a PCGS coin was crossed to NGC that they'd accept the PCGS insert as proof of provenance as well!

 

3) Jadecoin stated that PCGS said they erroneously dropped the Norweb from the insert the second go round. The fact that it was removed is not admission by PCGS that the coin is not of Norweb provenance.

 

What we have here is a bad situation. At some point, PCGS accepted some evidence that the coin was of Norweb provenance. In most instances, that provenance is worth absolutely diddly squat. Just like in most instances a PF66 in a PF70DCAM holder is worth $50. We simply cannot expect the services to pay off in every ambiguous situation what the highest bidder values a coin! And they won't!

 

I will not concede that this coin's pedigree is clearly an error. There are unplated coins in that catalog and it easily could be one of them. Absent a clear error, why should PCGS participate in Jadecoin's mess? Because they are big? Because they are bad? I hate "guilty until proven innocent" and that's what this is. I'll stand up for NGC and PCGS equally in any such situation.

[gmarguli]

1) The coin is pedigreed to the Norweb collection. Absent proof to the contrary, I accept this provenance because I know at some point some sort of proof of provenance was given in order to get it on the insert. The fact that it is not plated is NOT proof to the contrary.

 

Do you really know this? Honestly, how do you know it wasn't someone submitting the coin and they put Norweb as the variety and it went thru the process without being checked due to error? Or that it was researched and concluded not to be a Norweb, but it went thru the process as a Norweb instead because the person researching the coin punched the wrong computer key? Perhaps the person verifying this coin mistook it for another? Perhaps the person who prints up the inserts and checks them against the invoice put it back thinking it was a mistake? Perhaps it was a computer glitch? Perhaps the Norweb pedigree was meant for the coin before or after this one on the invoice? Perhaps EVERY coin on the invoice was a Norweb coin except this one, but the submitter included it hoping PCGS wouldn't keep checking after so many coins?

 

There are hundreds of possibilities as to how this coin got slabbed as a Norweb and I fully admit a non-plated coin is very likely, but it is not the only possibility and we should not necessarily give the grading service the benefit of the doubt. We would never give another insurance company the benefit of the doubt, but we will to this particular one?

 

Remember, we saw that "One C*nt" cent with the bodybag tag put into a slab. That should never happen.

 

I posted a picture here of a PCGS slabbed PROOF 1960 Small Date cent graded MS66CAM. Now, I know at some point several expert graders looked at this coin and rendered an opinion that the coin is in fact an ultra rare MINT STATE coin that has a solid cameo on jet black mirror fields.

 

At one time I had the highest graded mint state Franklin half in existence. To this day not a single one has graded as high as my MS68. Mine was truly beautiful with mirrored surfaces.

 

I've submitted coins and listed the correct denomination and had it switched to an incorrect denomination. Again, expert graders thought my Ike dollar was a Kennedy half and until I have proof to the contrary I accept this because I know at some point some sort of proof was given in order to get it on the insert.

 

I've seen NUMEROUS early commemoratives with the wrong commem listed on the insert. This is fairly common for PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. Now, expert graders verified that a Lynchburg commem is really a Roanoke commem. Who are we to argue?

 

The grading services make mistakes. As the volume of coins surges I'm sure liberties are taken. Anyone who says otherwise is fooling themselves. I don't know if this coin is a Norweb coin or not and it makes no difference to me, but PCGS needs to make up its mind and stick to it. If it isn't a Norweb then they have to compensate the owner a fair price. If it is then at the very least they should supply proof to the owner to clear up the situation.

 

 

 

2) PCGS will accept other company's inserts as proof of provenance. They will also accept expert testimony in certain cases. I'd be willing to bet that if a PCGS coin was crossed to NGC that they'd accept the PCGS insert as proof of provenance as well!

 

That's odd since PCGS would not accept the Millennium Set designation from other slabs. They required the coins to be submitted in the sealed original sets. They stated they would NOT cross them from other service holders. They don't trust them on a $20 coin, but they do on an important pedigree? Odd.

 

And if they accept the pedigree and remove it from the other slab, they have just accepted the liability for that pedigree should it turn out to be incorrect. If a service can't handle that then they should not accept the pedigree without some proof.

 

 

 

3) Jadecoin stated that PCGS said they erroneously dropped the Norweb from the insert the second go round. The fact that it was removed is not admission by PCGS that the coin is not of Norweb provenance.

 

And the fact that they are willing to put it back is not proof it is a Norweb coin. After all, David Hall said they'd put an overgraded (liner) coin back in the higher grade slab rather than pay out. Ethics isn't their strong point.