Questions re Ebay'er "bobscoinmart" and/or "Grade Evaluation Company"...

[XpipedreamR]

That 1889 Morgan is SWEET. There's only one exactly like it in the entire world, you know.

[MarkFeld]

Greg, it is highly unlikely that your arguments would persuade a judge in a court of law. Whether you care to admit it or not, the motives of a seller certifying his own coins (and not disclosing such) at absurdly high grades and including auction prices realized and/or PCGS Price Guide prices in his listings, could be easily inferred by a person of reasonable intelligence.

[gmarguli]

Greg, it is highly unlikely that your arguments would persuade a judge in a court of law. Whether you care to admit it or not, the motives of a seller certifying his own coins (and not disclosing such) at absurdly high grades and including auction prices realized and/or PCGS Price Guide prices in his listings, could be easily inferred by a person of reasonable intelligence.

 

While you clearly have more experience with the law than me, I still bet the seller has enough wiggle room to avoid any serious legal threat. He can clearly show that grades change wildly between graders (I've had a coin go from VF35 to MS62 at the same first tier TPG), prices are all over the place - even for the same grade, and there is no clearly defined standards in the industry.

 

If it was so easy to win against these self slabbers, why hasn't anyone won yet or even taken action to try?

[Zoins]

If it was so easy to win against these self slabbers, why hasn't anyone won yet or even taken action to try?

Didn't the ANA try with ACG?

[gmarguli]

If it was so easy to win against these self slabbers, why hasn't anyone won yet or even taken action to try?

Didn't the ANA try with ACG?

 

Nope. ACG sued the ANA.

[WoodenJefferson]

Until some crusader comes along with the power like a Ralph Nader, the profiteering will continue on e-bay, unabated. There are no teeth installed to discipline the abusers, only some gummy rules and regulations that slap the hands of those who wish to profit from shady business practices.

 

This won't happen without the backings such as money, legal advice, time, e-bays consent and the purchasing power of the buyers. Also, coins themselves don't kill collectors, wives that find out how much money you spent on them do.

 

pretty picture, cleaning up the parries like e-bay needs to be vacuumed

[MarkFeld]

If it was so easy to win against these self slabbers, why hasn't anyone won yet or even taken action to try?

My guess is that for the most part, those who are getting taken are unaware of it, thinking they have gotten good deals.

[James_OldeTowne]

Perhaps you and James and others know of a different definition of "certified" than I do?

 

Here is the definition:

 

cer·ti·fied Pronunciation [sur-tuh-fahyd] – adjective

1. having or proved by a certificate: a certified representative.

2. guaranteed; reliably endorsed: a certified check.

3. legally declared insane.

4. committed to a mental institution.

 

You'll notice that nowhere do it say anything about "independent" or "arms length". The easiest thing to note is #1: "having a certificate", which I think the insert clearly meets.

But what the definition does state is: "guaranteed". And I did not find any kind of guarantee expressly or implicitly stated anywhere in either the auction, or on the "GEC" website.

 

Guarantee is just one of 4 choices. It only has to meet one.

 

Greg, which definition does he meet, in your mind?

 

 

But don't sellers have to follow eBay's Code of Conduct for Selling Coins and Paper Money which says:

Sellers agree not to knowingly participate in any way in the advertisement, sale or trade of any numismatic material using any deceptive practices including, but not limited to, false or misleading claims of sales scarcity, value, condition or investment potential.

The average coin buyer might think sellers are following these policies and eBay is policing sellers well if the ANA continues to let them use their logo.

 

Grading is subjective. There are also multiple grading scales used in the world. I can start my own grading scale if I like.

 

People need to educate themselves about grading. If they don't, then they bear the responsibility of their (in)actions.

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

[gmarguli]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

[MarkFeld]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

Greg, the ANA was expertly and independently authenticating (and grading) OTHER people's coins. If a person were grading, encapsulating and "certifying" his own coins under the pretense that he was doing so independently, that would be a very different situation.

[MAULEMALL]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

Greg, the ANA was expertly and independently authenticating (and grading) OTHER people's coins. If a person were grading, encapsulating and "certifying" his own coins under the pretense that he was doing so independently, that would be a very different situation.

You mean like David Hall??

[MarkFeld]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

Greg, the ANA was expertly and independently authenticating (and grading) OTHER people's coins. If a person were grading, encapsulating and "certifying" his own coins under the pretense that he was doing so independently, that would be a very different situation.

You mean like David Hall??

Not at all like David Hall. David Hall made no secret, whatsoever, about grading and selling his own coins. He even had his name on the inserts. He also used relatively strict grading and made a two way market in his coins.

[WoodenJefferson]

So far I see the score as:

 

Mark Feld - 1

MAULEMAUL - 0

[MAULEMALL]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

Greg, the ANA was expertly and independently authenticating (and grading) OTHER people's coins. If a person were grading, encapsulating and "certifying" his own coins under the pretense that he was doing so independently, that would be a very different situation.

You mean like David Hall??

Not at all like David Hall. David Hall made no secret, whatsoever, about grading and selling his own coins. He even had his name on the inserts. He also used relatively strict grading and made a two way market in his coins.

I am speaking of his only selling pcgs slabs,,For some reason I seem to remember something about some litigation DH was involved in...Maybe you could shed some light..

[MarkFeld]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

Greg, the ANA was expertly and independently authenticating (and grading) OTHER people's coins. If a person were grading, encapsulating and "certifying" his own coins under the pretense that he was doing so independently, that would be a very different situation.

You mean like David Hall??

Not at all like David Hall. David Hall made no secret, whatsoever, about grading and selling his own coins. He even had his name on the inserts. He also used relatively strict grading and made a two way market in his coins.

I am speaking of his only selling pcgs slabs,,For some reason I seem to remember something about some litigation DH was involved in...Maybe you could shed some light..

Sorry, I don't know what litigation you're speaking of or understand your "You mean like David Hall?? " question.

[gmarguli]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

Greg, the ANA was expertly and independently authenticating (and grading) OTHER people's coins. If a person were grading, encapsulating and "certifying" his own coins under the pretense that he was doing so independently, that would be a very different situation.

You mean like David Hall??

Not at all like David Hall. David Hall made no secret, whatsoever, about grading and selling his own coins. He even had his name on the inserts. He also used relatively strict grading and made a two way market in his coins.

I am speaking of his only selling pcgs slabs,,For some reason I seem to remember something about some litigation DH was involved in...Maybe you could shed some light..

Sorry, I don't know what litigation you're speaking of or understand your "You mean like David Hall?? " question.

 

Probably from the early 90's when the FTC smacked the TPGs.

[MAULEMALL]

This is a situation where subjectivity isn't the issue (for me). He is not selling a coin at a grade, he is selling a coin which he claims is certified for a specific grade. The issue of certification is not arbitrary or subjective. If he claims something is certified, he should be able to back up that claim.

 

I would simply like to see his guarantee for the alleged "certification" of these grades.

 

The insert is the certificate. He needs no guarantee for this certificate. Remember, the ANA did not have a guarantee for coins they certified.

Greg, the ANA was expertly and independently authenticating (and grading) OTHER people's coins. If a person were grading, encapsulating and "certifying" his own coins under the pretense that he was doing so independently, that would be a very different situation.

You mean like David Hall??

Not at all like David Hall. David Hall made no secret, whatsoever, about grading and selling his own coins. He even had his name on the inserts. He also used relatively strict grading and made a two way market in his coins.

I am speaking of his only selling pcgs slabs,,For some reason I seem to remember something about some litigation DH was involved in...Maybe you could shed some light..

Sorry, I don't know what litigation you're speaking of or understand your "You mean like David Hall?? " question.

 

Probably from the early 90's when the FTC smacked the TPGs.

Yes ,,,Is there a link or article anywhere??

And was it all the TPG's..

When I asked this "You mean like David Hall??",I thought that D H had had a problem with this area and was wondering if you could expound or had any knowledge of it.