Spectacular 1832 Dime! Are there any Bust dime die variety collectors out there?

[BillJones]

 

I usually don’t buy MS-65 coins, and I never pay big bucks for toner coins, but I could not resist this piece. It is an 1832 dime that is in an NGC MS-65 holder.

 

The color is really superb and according to the book, Early United States Dimes, 1796 - 1837 it might be an important find from the preservation aspect. The variety is 1832 - 5. According to the book the variety is an R-2 and fairly common, but it also said that at the time of publishing that the finest seen example was an AU-55 and that no Mint State examples had been seen.

 

Are there any dime collectors out there who find this piece to be of interest? It's not for sale. I was only wondering if any one was interested in exchanging information.

 

This coin offers some subtle insights into the climate conditions at the Philadelphia mint during this period. There is some die rust above the date, on Ms. Liberty’s cap above the letter “E” and on her cheek below her eye. The first two patches of rust are listed in the book, but the one on her face is not.

 

During the summer the weather can get very hot and humid in Philadelphia. Therefore if the mint workers are not careful, the dies can rust. I once owned an 1854 type II gold dollar that had die rust on the obverse. The coin was also an MS-65, and that feature was noted in Walter Breen’s booklet on gold dollar die varieties. It’s just one more little insight that one can make when these old coins are viewed under a strong glass.

[James_OldeTowne]

It is indeed, definitely JR-5, a fairly common (R.2) variety. This being a later die-state, the easiest diagnostic is the tiny die-crack above Liberty's cap.

 

The grades "seen" by the authors are only mildly useful. Those comments were made prior to encapsulation, and based on first-hand experience. I don't think they are meaningful today (the book was written some years ago). That said, your coin is spectacular!

 

EDITED: should have stated JR-5, which it definitely is.

[BillJones]

You think that it is a JR-2, James?

 

I thought that it is a JR-5. The die combination that I saw was obverse 2 and reverse C. JR-2 was made from obverse 2 and reverse B. I believe that obverse 2 was used for a while and then set aside. During that time it rusted.

[Cladiator]

Excellent addition sir! I can't jump in on the attirbution game until later today from home though.

[okbustchaser]

It is JR-5 not 2. Note the I to T relationship on reverse. It is (as stated above) a later use of the same obverse die.

 

and VERY nice looking!! !

[James_OldeTowne]

I thought that it is a JR-5. The die combination that I saw was obverse 2 and reverse C. JR-2 was made from obverse 2 and reverse B. I believe that obverse 2 was used for a while and then set aside. During that time it rusted.

Bill, I mistyped. Yes JR-5. My hands got ahead of my brain, which was still thinking of the R2 rating .

 

JR-5 correction also made in my post above to avoid confusion.

[Hoot]

Spectacular coin, Bill. I see the JRCS people got to you.

 

Hoot

[BillJones]

No, I just bought that dime as a type coin.

 

When I tell this die variety collectors that I collect type coins, they look at me like I'm some sort of lower order of being. But then when they see my collection, they understand where I'm coming from.

 

I was a member of the JR Society for a while, but I just could not generate any interest among collectors who are interested in early half dimes, which is one of my passions. That let me to drop out since I don't collector any other early silver coins in depth.

[Cladiator]

but I just could not generate any interest among collectors who are interested in early half dimes, which one of my passions.

We are a minority in the club

[BillJones]

but I just could not generate any interest among collectors who are interested in early half dimes, which one of my passions.

We are a minority in the club

 

We HAVE to be a minority. There are so few coins available to buy that if another five collectors got into the market, there would be nothing left. Everything would be in collections.

 

I just added the first piece to my collection in more than five years. Glaciers move faster than my collection of early half dimes.

[Cladiator]

but I just could not generate any interest among collectors who are interested in early half dimes, which one of my passions.

We are a minority in the club

 

We HAVE to be a minority. There are so few coins available to buy that if another five collectors got into the market, there would be nothing left. Everything would be in collections.

 

I just added the first piece to my collection in more than five years. Glaciers move faster than my collection of early half dimes.

You guys are just lucky that they are too expensive for me to actually buy

 

I have to be content with studying from photos and collecting vicariously

[rbrown4]

Here is the only one that I have, 1835 JR-5. Sorry for the un-cropped pics, had not gotten to this one yet.

 

Rey

 

 

[JRocco]

I don't collect the series Bill, but that is one heck of a looker. What a beauty.

[rrantique]

Here is the only one that I have, 1835 JR-5. Sorry for the un-cropped pics, had not gotten to this one yet.

 

Rey

 

 

 

Holy Smokes Rey that is one smokin Dime

[MunkyMan95]

I agree! What did ANACS give that one Rey?

[bsshog40]

Killer Dime Rey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MikeKing]

I don't know anything about bust dimes, but I would suspect that coin is within the condition census for the variety. It IS a spectacular MS65, beautiful die crack, toning and strike. That coin has it all.

[rbrown4]

The 1835 Dime is MS 60 Details. Someone got greedy with it, should have left it alone.

 

Rey

[realone]

Bill I also loved the coin, my problem with not pulling the trigger with coin rarities was their high price. What pisses me off is that it was just auctioned on Heritage in January for $4,887.50 in a NGC holder. I would have gone $5k and a maybe little more if I had to but I couldn't legitimately pay the dealers price on this one. I did notice that it was listed for sale, then it was lited on hold and then it was back for sale and now it is gone, so maybe they came to thier senses and lowered their price to you, but they wouldn't lower it much when I inquired. I have tried to buy many a coin but they won't lower their asking price by much ever for me. That being said I agree with their description, this coin has the look I am looking for, but $4,887 in January makes me cry, I wish i saw it on Heritage, beautiful dime, I would be proud to own it.

BTW I recently bought a 1836 JR-2 10c MS65 PCGS OGH original surfaces and the dealers Wayne Herndon was great to deal with, he negotiated and made sure I was satisfied, and he bought it at the Stack's auction, but he was reasonable, and I know this has nothing to do with it, but because the Stack's auction shows the selling prices like Heritage I knew what he paid and that he received a fair profit from our transaction.

[GAB]

VERY nice!

[BillJones]

Bill I also loved the coin, my problem with not pulling the trigger with coin rarities was their high price. What pisses me off is that it was just auctioned on Heritage in January for $4,887.50 in a NGC holder. I would have gone $5k and a maybe little more if I had to but I couldn't legitimately pay the dealers price on this one. I did notice that it was listed for sale, then it was lited on hold and then it was back for sale and now it is gone, so maybe they came to thier senses and lowered their price to you, but they wouldn't lower it much when I inquired. I have tried to buy many a coin but they won't lower their asking price by much ever for me. That being said I agree with their description, this coin has the look I am looking for, but $4,887 in January makes me cry, I wish i saw it on Heritage, beautiful dime, I would be proud to own it.

BTW I recently bought a 1836 JR-2 10c MS65 PCGS OGH original surfaces and the dealers Wayne Herndon was great to deal with, he negotiated and made sure I was satisfied, and he bought it at the Stack's auction, but he was reasonable, and I know this has nothing to do with it, but because the Stack's auction shows the selling prices like Heritage I knew what he paid and that he received a fair profit from our transaction.

 

Well I got the asking price down some, but it still probably would not have low enough for you. The Blue Sheet price for NCG graded MS-65 reduced size dimes is truly ridiculous. That probably made the coin hard to sell for the Rarities guys.

 

As for the prices, the sad fact is there not much good stuff out there for sale right now. Sure I can buy “widgets” with Gray Sheets prices and less, but nothing that is really interesting. I paid way over the price guides for the 1795 Flowing Hair dollar and half dollar that I recently purchased. Maybe I’m nuts, but you can’t find good stuff cheap these days unless your throw away your ethics and rip-off the widow of a deceased collector.

 

I tend hold coins that I like in my collection for a very long time. So when I get ready to sell this one it will probably be a very different market. That could be a good or bad thing for me.

[Shamika-migration]

 

Geez! That coin has some serious detail! Just imagine a large coin like a silver dollar having this much relief.

[realone]

You may have misunderstood me, my question is first how did you miss this on Heritage's site 4 months ago and knowing what they paid for it does that not tend to stop giving the dealer the big bucks, since only3 bid on it at Heritage and they only paid $4,880, so was this missed by all the experts at the auction, or how do you justify giving these guys that kind of profit after 4 months?

[leeg]

Very Beautiful example Bill!!! Congrat's

[BillJones]

You may have misunderstood me, my question is first how did you miss this on Heritage's site 4 months ago and knowing what they paid for it does that not tend to stop giving the dealer the big bucks, since only3 bid on it at Heritage and they only paid $4,880, so was this missed by all the experts at the auction, or how do you justify giving these guys that kind of profit after 4 months?

 

The answer to that is real simple. I don't buy expensive coins on-line unless they are modern stuff that is in the original mint package. I figure that I can't go too far wrong on those. I only bid and buy coins that I can see personally.

 

The one exception to that is a couple of token and medal dealers I know who grade just as conservatively or more conservatively that I do. I'll bid in their sales, even if there are no photos. From these guys I've purchased perhaps 200 pieces and only returned one. Herritage would not make my short list of such dealers.

 

Unless you are a dealer who is out to buy most anything if the price is right, auctions are a pain the butt for many collectors. You can spend several hundred dollars to go to an auction and veiw the few lots that are of interest. Then you go to the auction and the item gets bid up by a yahoo or is protected and you end up with with nothing but credit card charges. Been there, done that, now avoid it.

 

As a dealer, I have not problem with the profit I paid to the Rarities guys. They took that chance and bought the coin. They have had their money tied up for a few months. Given what I paid, I do not find their mark-up excessive. As a dealer who as done shows for 10 years +, I know that you have a lot more expenes than just the cost of goods sold.

[realone]

Bill,

if you are a dealer then how will you turn a profit on this 10c including your expenses related to being a dealer and holding it for x period of time. I can understand if I pulled the trigger on it, but I am not a dealer, so I would have kept it forever. I really loved the 10c and thought it had the look and was outstanding from the photos, if they dropped it down I would have defimitely picked it up, I just couldn't justify that kind of profit for such a short time holding it at the price that they got it for. Like I said I also tried to buy other coins from them and they again wouldn't budge. I buy a lot of coins from dealers and auctions and typically work things out. I can't believe I misswed this one on Heritage, that was the time to buy and have no problem buying from a pic when it looks like that one.

[Cladiator]

Realone,

 

Bill is a dealer and a collector. From what I've read in this thread I think he purchased the coin as a collector to add it to his collection, not as a dealer to resell.

[BillJones]

You are exactly right, Cladiator.

 

I am a collector AND a dealer. When I buy a coin for my collection, I will pay more, sometimes a lot more. When I am buying for resale I'm more in line with Gray Sheet bid and ask for properly graded or PQ coins.

 

Sadly if you are a collector, you have got to pay strong prices for coins that hard to find, attractive and properly graded in the holder. I can't see any way around that. For a number of years, if you found a really nice early coin (most things prior to 1820 that is NOT part of a big hoard), the rule of thumb was you were okay if you paid the Gray Sheet bid price for the next grade up. For example when I bought my 1811 $5 gold piece in PCGS AU-55 (fully original never dipped) I paid virtually the MS-60 price and felt like it was a bargain. Ditto for the 1795 $5 gold in PCGS AU-55.

 

Today it's worse. It's getting be "gulp and pay time." I'm not sure if we are seeing a repeat of the situation in 1979-80 when dealers thought that paying three times bid was okay. At any rate I'm buying primo stuff (at least for my taste and budget) so I'll be unhappy if what I buy crashes, but I would not be suicidal.