VARIETY OR ERROR COIN? IS NGC WRONG ON THIS ONE??

[LEAKYCOIN]

Is this coin graded wrongly by NGC? Is it an error coin or a Variety? All answers welcome..

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11983&item=3039834019

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

[gmarguli]

While it fits neither definition perfectly, I guess I'd lean toward mint error.

 

A variety is a different characteristic of a coin (type 1/2 mint mark on the SBA or 12/13 leaves on the Bust dollars) that is the result of different die preperation (either intentional or unintentional). An error is a mint mistake during the striking process that was not intended. If a coin that is struck off center is an error then why shouldn't a coin struck from a cracked/broken die be an error.

 

Having said that, I am not 100% unswayable with that opinion.

 

 

[crito]

Types and varieties are two different things. Wide AM cents are types. It's a design element on the hub and all the dies made from that hub have that characteristic. It's quite possible for there to be different Wide AM varieties for a giving year. All you need is some sort of marker to help identify the die pair... like a crack. An off center strike can't be used to identify unique die pairings or unique design hubs.

 

[Dermott]

Using the definition put forward by Mr. Alan Herbert, it'd be an error and not a variety.

 

A variety as mentioned above is a coin difference based on how the dies are prepared. Doubled Dies, RPMs, etc would fit into this category.

 

An error is something thatt goes wrong in the minting process and tends to create unique pieces due to said error. "Clips", double strikes, brockages, etc fit into this category.

 

This would be a die crack, an error in the process that as the die continues to be used, the crack itself grows and changes (progresses) with each strike so that each strike is at least marginally different (even if on a microscopic level).

 

A variety would be the same for every coin minted with the specific die pair, an error would not.

[crito]

See the "scarface" Morgan variety, which PCGS attributes BTW. In the broadest sense of the word "error", a vertical over horizontal mintmark must be one too. The sideways mintmark couldn't be an intentional design element. I'm sure there's an earlier die state of the three legged buffalo nickel where all four legs are present too. I'm also sure whoever over polished the dies didn't mean to make a rarity. It identifies a unique die pair so it's a variety. Not just a polishing error.

 

If it's unique to the strike it's an error. If it's unquie to the die pair it's a variety. If it's unique to the design hub it's a type.

[LEAKYCOIN]

"This would be a die crack, an error in the process that as the die continues to be used, the crack itself grows and changes (progresses) with each strike so that each strike is at least marginally different (even if on a microscopic level)."

 

Suppose the die crack has progressed all it can? Example: Suppose the crack has progressed all the way across the coin, and can longer progress any more. This means it can not no longer progress further on the microscopic scale. All coins are different from strike to strike on the microscopic scale due the the fact that the die is wearing out on every progressive strike.

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

[DWLange]

Setting aside the discussion of semantics for a moment, here's a practical definition: NGC won't designate die crack coins such as this under its VarietyPlus service, because we recognize only those items listed in Cherrypicker or the Red Book. If you have one of these coins and want the crack noted, submit it as an error coin, not a variety.

[LEAKYCOIN]

DW,

"NGC won't designate die crack coins such as this under its VarietyPlus service, because we recognize only those items listed in Cherrypicker or the Red Book."

 

Why only these books? There are many more books. However, it might take a while for coins like this to make it to them since they are new. Also, why can't NGC make up there own mind if they are varieties or not instead of relying on someones book? Afterall, NGC is the best at grading coins, and they should have the expertise to determine such things.

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

 

[RotatedRainbows]

A coin cannot be a new variety without changing one of the dies (either obverse or reverse). So the coin in the auction can be a SUB-variety but not a new variety. i.e.: no die crack would prime variety say it is variety 1, coin with slight crack would be considered SUB-variety 1a, coin with large die crack would be SUB-variety 1b but a coin can never be considered a new variety if the same die pair is used.

[Dermott]

I'm unsure on the Scarface Morgan, however, the Horizontal over Vertical RPMs are vareities because it's added to the die by the engraver and affects every minted coin by that pair of dies the same way. A die crack, even one that has apparently gone as far as it can go will still go through minute changes in position with each strike. Also, the die crack has occured well after the die was prepared instead of during preparation.

 

I guess another possible definition is that an "error" is an error in production while a "variety" is an error in preparation. By this, a "type" would be an intended change in design. Also, (and someone will have to correct me if my logic is flawed here), an "error" is an event that is possible to occur on any struck coin regardless of denomination, type, date, or mintmark.

[BillJones]

This is an example of a die state. It is neither an error or a variety.

 

Given the large number of dies that the mint uses to strike coins (Check out the article on the front page of this week's Coin World.), it's surprising that we don't see more examples of these die cracks. What amazes me is that people pay premiums for this stuff. On 18th and 19th century coins die breaks like this are not unusual and often don't bring any extra money. In fact if the die problems cause the strike to be less than sharp, the coin can be worth less money.

[crito]

Yes, it's a die state. So is a three legged buffalo nickel. Varieties can exist for early die states, middle of the road die states and late die states too. All that matters is whether it's a popular die state and thus recongized as a variety. An error coin, however, it's most certainly not.

 

[crito]

Doubled dies can be caused by mechanical errors during hubbing, but they're varieties too. It's the level at which the difference exists that seperates errors from varieties from types. The intent is irrelevant in this context. But for clarity sake, it's better to refer to non-striking "errors" as "blunders". A blundered mintmark or a blundered date, not an error mintmark or an error date.

 

[platinumcrazy-migration]

Hope some collectors can be of help, regarding proof errors? I received (2) 2002-W $50.00 Proof Platinum, that arrived from the Mint, with damage. I finally was able to get PCGS to take me seriously, when I submitted the Coin, under Mint Error. It was authenticated, as a Mint Error, as well as receiving a respectable PR69DCAM. Since the damage was isolated to the reeded edge of the coin, as well as the rim. The damage can be seen, with the naked eye, in 2 specific areas,

that were indented, from excessive pressure, causing 2 areas of the reeded edge, to be elavated above the reverse side of the coin. However, it was given an attribution called, "Wire Rim Reverse at 1:30" I didn't receive a Mint error on the second coin, though, I believe, it should have? Has NGS authenticated any Platinum Proof Errors, to date? I am just waiting for the application to be processed, so I may submit, my second coin to them. Any information would be appreciated. Thanks, Jim

[LEAKYCOIN]

Jim,

Since your coin is platinum, I am sure the mintage totals will be low. This would make it a valuable coin since it is a proof coin.It is very interesting.It is hard to tell from the picture as to what the error is even though it is called a wire rim. If the collar was damaged somehow this type of error can occur. I have seen some collar cuds on some kennedy's, and the reeding is damaged. Is the reeding damaged on your coins?

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS