Are these $5 Indian gold coins AT?? Please Comment!

[jom]

Hello all

 

I'd like to show you a couple of gold coins I've owned for a number of years now. Both are graded by PCGS as MS62...an 11-P and a 14-S $5 Indian. Both have gained some value over the past couple of years due to the price of gold. The 14-S is a very expensive coins especially in the next grade up.

 

The reason for this thread is that I want as many of you as possible to comment on the color of the coins. There is some reason to believe (which I'll disclose later) these coins might have been tampered with in terms of their appearence. This is NOT a thread to test anyone. I'm just trying to get a consenses on what other experienced collectors think.

 

If you think they are (or are not) please state WHY you think so either way. I will NOT be offended.

 

I'd like to point out the photos are not perfect. The 11-P has a clear orangist cast on the obverse and the 14-S has a lighter type of orange color but it's less ingrained into the coin but it's on both sides.

 

What do you all think?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

jom

[Wihlborg]

I know where you’re going with this, so I’ll refrain from answering right now. I do have an opinion though and will let you know what I think later.

 

John

[braddick]

They appear to have been laquered and then slightly circulated.

[jom]

I know where you’re going with this, so I’ll refrain from answering right now. I do have an opinion though and will let you know what I think later.

 

Feel free to give an opinion. After I disclose more you can then add to it.

 

BTW, are the photos too WIDE? Let me know and I can make them smaller.

 

jom

[jom]

They appear to have been laquered and then slightly circulated.

 

Laquered? I'm not sure what you mean on that one. However, I think any obvious laqureing (is that a word?) would have been caught by PCGS.

 

However, I can see your "slightly circulated" comment. With few exceptions though the vast majority of circulated (even AU58s) incuse indian golds have the first wear point on the shoulder of the eagle. There is no such wear on these. You can though see the hairlines in the fields on the reverse of the 11-P. Perhaps this is were you see the circulation. This is a good comment but I've see MS64 incuse Indians with hairlines in the field. The fields, remember, are the HIGHEST point on the coin due to the design and are subject to more of this kind of damage. It's very typical.

 

Thanks!

 

jom

[JamminJ]

I also thought they were slightly circulated.

 

Color on the forst one looks a bit off, second look stripped but it may be the photo.

[Wihlborg]

O.K. then, here it goes. Going by your photos of the coins, both coins look off to me. The ‘11p being the most problematic of the two. I’m concerned about what appear to be numerous brown stains on the obverse and the overall color of the reverse, which looks like it my have had some type of chemical applied to it in an effort to clean it.

 

The ‘14s doesn’t actually look that bad to me, but its color appears to be a little lighter in some areas than others. It could just be the lighting though.

 

John

[PerryHall]

Both coins look fine. Don't get paranoid. Don't let your imagination get the better of you.

[pendragon1998]

BTW, are the photos too WIDE? Let me know and I can make them smaller.

 

jom

 

Yeah - I try and limit mine to 850 pixels wide.

[jom]

OK, time to continue this thread.

 

Here's what happened. I decided (contrary to Braddick and Jammin') I thought the coins were a HIGHER grade than what was depicted on the slab (both MS62). I felt the 11-P was a long shot but I was dead certain the 14-S was a 63. So after cracking them out (as I was advised to do by several dealers/collectors thinking that PCGS won't upgrade in the slab) and submitting them to PCGS I got them back in BODY BAGS for questionable toning.

 

Now I was not worried about this at all BEFORE the submission. After all they did slab the coin before so what's the worry, right? However, if that "Peacock Ike" hoard situation is familiar to anyone PCGS can and WILL change their minds on certain things. It seems this is one of them....the coloring of gold. It turns out I sent them to NGC with the SAME RESULT.

 

At this point my only resort is too dip the coins to get them back into holders. I did NOT want to do this by any stretch as I simply do not like playing that game. But I decided that since the 11-P is far less valuable I'd give it a try with that one. I gave the coin to a board member here to dip it (I didn't trust myself with it). They told me that it took SEVERAL dips to get the "orangish" tint off of the obverse. Is applying tone to gold and then having a difficult time removing it actually mean the tone might have been legit? I dunno but it seems strange to me that it would be difficult to remove an applied tone.

 

I then more recently sent BOTH coins back in (not having dipped the 14-S) to PCGS. It seems Braddick and Jammin' are true graders because the 11-P came back in AU58 and the 14-S was still bodybagged.

 

So here are my questions, concerns and comments:

 

1) As Greg Margulies often states: Know what you are doing before you buy. $5 Indians are not the easiest coins in the world to grade. Given that is obvious that PCGS has trouble with it should tell us all something. Then when you add in the uncertainty of doctors it gets all the more difficult.

 

2) As to Braddicks and James comments from above. PCGS has changed their grading on these coins over the years. Both coins (at least the 11-P) would have been a definate AU58 in the early 90s but PCGS has softened this a bit, especially for "PQ" coins. I've seen this at auction in the mid-90s where coins graded AU53 were going for MS62+ money all of the time and after a time you would not see PQ coins in AU holders anymore.

 

3) As to the 11-P now graded AU58. IMO (and a couple of other dealers) think this is due to the "stripped" look now rather than the grade it was before. In most cased now PCGS would not have gone AU on this if not for the obvious dipping. This worries me a lot about the 14-S.

 

4) What is with this color being applied to gold? What is the latest consensus on this? Gold is a metal that doesn't really tone but the copper content can. I don't see any "cover up" potential on either of these coins so what's the deal?

 

Sorry for the long post but I'm looking for any experience anyone might have with this.

 

Thanks.

 

jom

[Oldtrader3]

Jom: I withheld comment on these coins for (2) reasons. Firstly, I don't like to grade Indian gold from pictures and secondly, I respect you as a gold collector and did not want to hurt your feelings. However, the obverse of the '11-P looked lacquered and the reverse lacks natural luster. The obverse of the '14-S looks AU, but not quite natural. I probably could have commented but as you know, Indian gold is tricky to grade sight seen, let alone from pictures. Also because of design, obverses of AU Indians often look worse than reverses due to of loss of detail in headress feathers.

[jom]

Interesting. First of all, you ain't going to be hurting my feelings. I've been doing this so long and have been burned enough not to feel it anymore.

 

On the lacquered comment: I'm probably just ignorant but isn't that easily caught by PGCS? Is so, how did the coin get into the slab in the first place. I can see a TPG blowing a grade, missing an AT coin or possibly miss a counterfeit (unlikely but possible) but something as obvious as lacquer? Isn't that easily detectable (evedently not by me however...). I had a good number of dealers saw these before I submitted the first time and no mention of any lacquer plus PCGS saw these two times and NGC once since I've owned them but no mention of lacquer only questionable toning. Also, remember, in case you didn't see it, these coins were purchased by me IN SLABS from PCGS. Although, since the 11-P was so difficult to drip "clean" maybe it's true. I seem I need an education on lacquer as do the TPG's it seems.

 

I understand the reluctance of grading by pictures. I wasn't, however, looking for accurate grading but whether anyone thought these were AT or some other such thing (such as lacquer).

 

Thanks for the comments. Anymore from anyone?

 

jom

[gmarguli]

I've seen both coins including the 11-P before and after dip. What does not show in the picture and something that I feel was very important that wasn't mentioned was that both coins had PURPLE toning on them. It was recessed in the headdress and around the face. This is likely what was referred to as AT. The golden orange color was probably OK.

 

While some people have mentioned lacquer, there was none on the coin.

 

After the dip the 11-P clearly showed more surface marks. Does it deserve to be in an AU58 slab? Probably not. Given the number of clearly circulated Indians in MS slabs, this one should easily go back into a MS slab if keep being resubmitted. A few seconds of a nice hot fire to deaden the surfaces is just what the doctor orders for this coin.

 

The 14-S is likely not going to go back into a PCGS slab with the purple color. They've learned that it is AT. What to do? Darken the purple a lot or remove it and deaden the surfaces.

[JamminJ]

Sorry for your rough luck with these coins. It was painful to watch play out over the past year or so.

[michael]

need to see the coins raw in hand sight seen to determine authenticity/toning but the point is moot with the pcgs slab

 

as far as grades both coins have no brainer rub and friction in the fields and rims (outer flat edge) of both coins

 

au58 for me

[jom]

as far as grades both coins have no brainer rub and friction in the fields and rims of both coins

 

au58 for me

 

Like I said above, you are probably right but NOT in today's grading environment....at least not with this series.

 

I remember being at the Michael Keston Sale at Superior in 1996 and the auction was full of this type of material. The later dates (Indians) had a number of PCGS graded AU coins, all PQ and all went for much more than sheet. I susupected that many of those coins would end up in MS holders eventually. Most graded AU material has much more rub now, even to the point where you see the wear on the eagle's shoulder. These coins do not have that.

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that this is a classic example of "grade-flation". I'm sure other series have encountered the same problem.

 

Greg: I'm going to have to look at these coins again to see the purple you mention. We'll both take a good hard look together when I get the coins back. I've owned purple toned gold before (a couple of quarter eagles graded PCGS 63 as I recall...maybe I should show a picture). These are no where near that level of violet color.

 

jom

[gmarguli]

I've owned purple toned gold before (a couple of quarter eagles graded PCGS 63 as I recall...maybe I should show a picture). These are no where near that level of violet color.

 

Whatever you do, don't break it out of the PCGS slab.

[PerryHall]

as far as grades both coins have no brainer rub and friction in the fields and rims of both coins

 

au58 for me

 

Indian $2 1/2 & $5 gold do not have rims. The fields go to the edge of the coin. Since these coins have no raised rims to protect the fields, the grading services make allowances for rub and scuffs on even MS specimens.

[PerryHall]

As far as one of these coins being lacquered, I doubt it very much. Why bother lacquering any gold coin? Usually, only copper is lacquered to keep red surfaces from becoming brown.

[Oldtrader3]

I bought a 1909-D half eagle from a large dealer on Ebay some years ago that was in an old ANA photo slab. The coin was graded MS63 but had no luster in the fields. The coin appeared to have been lacquered in what I believe was an attempt to cover up the dipped/stripped look on the fields from over dipping and rub. The coin looked much like Jom's '11-P. I returned that coin to the dealer for a refund without removing it from the holder. You guys have seen Jom's '11-P in person and I will defer to your judgement. My comments were based on my experience with the '09-D half eagle.

[jom]

My comments were based on my experience with the '09-D half eagle.

 

ANY comments that come from experienced collectors such as yourself are welcome. You never know with the TPG's but it would have been highly unusual for PCGS to miss that. I also understand it is exceedingly difficult with photos. Although I think my photos are pretty good they aren't exactly perfect plus you don't get the "3D" visual when you actually see a coin in person.

 

Lacqured or not there was something I obviously missed. I think maybe sometimes we all seem to miss something through the "plastic" (blindness due to trusting in TPG) we would otherwise find if the coin were raw.

 

Greg: Those $2.5 Indians are long gone now and I didn't crack them since I didn't believe there was an upgrade potential.

 

Here are the pics:

 

 

Note the violet color, especially on the 27-P. As to the 27-P I think this was part of a small "hoard" of these that sold at a Bowers sale (held in Beverly Hills) 4/5 years ago. All looked similar and all were 27-Ps. Are these AT?

 

jom