Food for thought about the toned PCGS jefferson 5C.

[truthteller]

Now that is has been confirmed that PCGS will not NOW grade the Purple/Blue Proof Jefferson 5C coins, does this lead to a deflation in prices for those coins? If so, does PCGS bear financial responsibility to compensate the coin owners? IMO, it is irresponsible for a grading service to OK the grading of a certain color coin, then to terminate the opinion. Since NGC never graded those coins in the first place, they bear no liability. Any thoughts?

 

 

TRUTH

[Tonelover-migration]

I talked with BigD about that today. Our feeling is that to anybody "in the know" the coins are virtually worthless. Whether PCGS's decision is right or wrong, they're tainted goods now.

 

PCGS definitely has a PR disaster on their hands. I personally can't fault them for grading some and then changing their minds. Like the Omega High Relief counterfeits, NGC graded some and when the floodgates opened suspicions became aroused and they wised up. Happens to the best of them.

 

To me the thing to take away from this fiasco is that one should never put all their stock in someone else's opinion.

 

Just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

[TomB]

Personally, I think their prices will increase since the volume of material will essentially be frozen but demand will increase as more people see these things and want them. Also, keep in mind that most people won't know that PCGS is not going to slab them anymore and others won't care since they are already in PCGS holders.

 

Personally, I believe many of these coins are AT and I knew about the PCGS decision well before most did, however, I would not buy any of the coins as I value my integrity more than a potential profit.

[stman]

however, I would not buy any of the coins as I value my integrity more than a potential profit.

 

Well said Tom... Too bad many people that sell these type of coins only go by the rule... "If it's slabbed it's good enough for me." And only care about the profits.

[BushMan]

It has, and continues to be, obvious that PCGS has no intention of compensating owners for the color "premium". So, their liability attached to those coins is very minimal. Personally, I don't have any problem with them holdering the solid blue/purple coins. I feel very confident they are naturally toned. The coins with the sunburst orange/yellow colors on a blue/purple background are obviously AT and I'm satisfied to know they will no longer be holdered. I avoid those coins. We'll have to see what happens to the value of those coins already holdered. Those people who purchased the questionably toned coins that have not been holdered will receive a substantial penalty for their optimism.

 

[braddick]

This is an interesting Thread as two of these PCGS toned Jeffersons closed tonight on Teletrade during their "Rainbow Auction". I placed a max/proxy bid of $150.00 on each and was soundly outbid- one going for twice that amount (a PR68 1964 blue Jefferson).

 

I'm a collector who has resolved the toning issue quite simply, and it works for me:

If NGC or PCGS holder the coin AND I like it, a lot, I buy it. For me it's putting the blinders on, I know, but it works.

[Hoot]

"Since NGC never graded those coins in the first place..."

 

Not sure where you got this one truth. I have one that NGC graded for me after I cut it out of a 1962 mint set. Nice purple toning. It's not neon, however.

 

Here's what Rick Montgomery said about this just a short time ago: Ask NGC about outrageously toned Jeffersons.

 

Edited to remove a phenomenally stupid statement on my part.

 

Hoot

[andy007]

I think we all need to be a little less presumptuous in how we approach this subject.

 

But what if, you absolutely know, that beyond a certain few, lightly toned blue and purple examples, that most of these coins have been helped along??? I stay away from these coins in holders myself, especially the crazy light blue, reds, and other colors that you know is not occuring naturally. I told most of the guys in threads when they first started appearing to be wary of the high prices these were garnering, and what did people do, but try to discredit me and tell me that I was not paying $ .75 to 1.00 for these coins at local shows, which is 100% true. I was offered as many rolls of these coins as I could afford at $200 a roll over a year ago, and this was from a blatant AT artist, who had nothing but ACG slabbed AT coins in his case. This is not the only case.

 

So why is it presumptuous to stay away from any of these coins that have the possibility, no matter how likely, to deal with these coins? I won't touch them slabbed due to this, and won't pay over $1 for them, even the natural, lightly toned examples that are relatively safe imo to deal with.

[gmarguli]

"Since NGC never graded those coins in the first place..."

 

Not sure where you got this one truth. I have one that NGC graded for me after I cut it out of a 1962 mint set. Nice purple toning. It's not neon, however.

 

Here's what Rick Montgomery said about this just a short time ago: Ask NGC about outrageously toned Jeffersons.

 

I think people are talking about two different types of toning here. The coins that are no longer being graded are the super vibrant multi-colored neon screamers that we see selling for $200 in the market. The dark and uniform blue/purple/greddish-gold ones are still being graded (at least by NGC and ANACS and possibly by PCGS).

[TomB]

Hoot, I would think that after having met me and conversed with me somewhat that you would realize a statement such as

I would not buy any of these coins as I value my integrity more than a potential profit

is a statement made with blunt truthfulness and candor, not one of self-righteousness. What I wrote is what I meant. I had known about the PCGS decision two weeks before it was mentioned by one of the principles on these boards. In the hobby and business of the numismatic bourse a two week lead-time in knowledge is enormous. Therefore, had I cared for a sound profit instead of my integrity, I could have and would have bought as many of those coins as possible and then aggressively marketed some of them via ebay while keeping others for myself to await the subsequent market price rise. However, I walked away from the coins and put my money elsewhere.

 

To those reading this please realize several things. First, if you are happy with coins purchased that are already slabbed by the major third-party certification services and if this third-party certification is what you need to feel unequivocally good about the coin then I am happy for you. That is not sarcastic, that is honest. Simply because I would not be happy about such a coin in a third-party certification holder does not mean others have to think the same way. You do what is right for yourself. Also, please understand that I don't believe all of these coins have been helped along. Certainly, there are many attractive proof Jeffersons that have had no help other than Mother Nature and luck, I am not trying to disparage all these coins. There are certain coins, however, that do not mesh with my understanding of the "look" that I am comfortable with. Lastly, and this is very important, I am not judging others who might sell these pieces. Again, simply because I don't believe they are all legitimately toned does not mean that others might not reasonably disagree. As such, they are completely within their rights to market such coins.

 

I am certain I have forgotten some points.

[Hoot]

Tom - Your integrity is implicit to me, so your intital statement struck me odd. That said, I apologize for the "self righteous" interpretation. You are indeed a good and humble person, even though you have the candor of a scientist .

 

For all: TomB is a great asset to numismatics. He has an unparalleled eye for the wonder of toning on coins. He is a person of immeasurable integrity and I can only take a back seat to his lead in identification of excellently toned coins.

 

Apologies to all for my irritablitly. It was undeserved.

 

Hoot

[Leothelion]

I've had my share of the blue proof Jeffs. The late Adolf Weiss, the early pioneer of the FS Jeffersons in the 1970's and 1980's, was a avid collector and seller of the nickels but he never sold anything other then blue proof Jeffersons. Dates from the early 1960's to 1970-S. The 3 years that I dealt with the man, he never talked about or had for sell the kind of the wild stuff were seeing today.

The only way I can identify with something close are the proofs I had in mylar flips and kept stored in the ANACS brown slab boxes. Those proofs toned into some interesting colors but nothing like what were discussing here. It was a common sight seeing these kind of proofs in ANACS holders at the larger midwest coin shows in the 90's but they were labeled AT. And I remember that you couldn't buy most of them as they were for display purposes only and the ones that you could buy had rediculous prices on them like $50-$75. I didn't buy them back then, why would I buy them today. I might pay $3-$4 for one but just so I can say I have one? I already have some nice toned proofs, naturally toned that is. But then again, that's another subject.

 

Leo

 

 

[Beijim]

For what it's worth, I'd prefer the candor of a scientist to the bullshyte of a politician any day. Thankfully, politicians appear not to frequent these boards .

 

Beijim

 

[TomB]

Hey Hoot, please don't apologize!

 

I understand that the written word can be much more easily misinterpreted than a spoken, real-time conversation. It has happened to me, from both perspectives, a number of times on the boards. I took no offense. The way I see it is that the communicator has a responsibility to those whom he is trying to communicate to and that responsibility is clarity. In my initial post I chose brevity over expansiveness, something novel for me , and my choice was apparently at the expense of clarity. It is my responsibility to make certain that others realize why I write what I do, in this particular case I left out the reasons, and it came back to bite me.

 

So, the miscommunication was on my end for leaving out pertinent information that the reader could logically be assumed to need. I hope this has not caused you undue angst.

 

As for the kind words at the end of your post, I'll ship you that MS '26-S Buff we talked about later this week!

[Hoot]

I'll ship you that MS '26-S Buff we talked about later this week!

 

 

Hoot