Mr Braddick,,,This coin is a MONSTER...

[relicsncoins]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

[gmarguli]

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color.

 

The PCGS slab says it is real color. The newbie has protection. And $200? Are you crazy? I'd pay Pat multiples of that right now for this coin.

 

 

However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling.

 

Why don't you ask the fellow forum member selling them. He's getting pretty good prices for them.

 

 

There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

 

If no one can tell the difference, then is there really a difference?

[truthteller]

"Is that some sort of a dig at Mark for selling blue indians...He fully disscloses what he thinks about them.. "

 

 

If you are refering to Mark Feld, I hold him in highest regard and value his opinions. In the past, we have discussed some of the forum coin doctors and their methods and he has asked for advice on what to look for.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[braddick]

Pat, are you going to post a reply on the two threads about this coin at CU?

The facts are somewhat boring and likely to derail those two threads. So, no. I won't be responding. I'm enjoying, as well as many others, the speculations and debate based on "facts not placed into evidence."

No one wants to be a wet blanket and a thread killer.

 

 

It's an enjoyable coin to own, on so many levels. Those who have seen it (I took it to the Long Beach coin show two shows ago) shake their heads in disbelief.

 

As a side note, for what's it's worth, this silver eagle cost me way too much, way back then, on the eBay auction it was offered (raw). Snipers jacked the price way up!

(There was even a thread based on that auction authored across the street after the final price was realized.)

[Zoins]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

[truthteller]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

While I can understand your point of view, this forum and the PCGS forums does often expose the wrongs and wrongdoers of the coin hobby. Sometimes only then is the "friendly, helpful" coin seller exposed.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

While I can understand your point of view, this forum and the PCGS forums does often expose the wrongs and wrongdoers of the coin hobby. Sometimes only then is the "friendly, helpful" coin seller exposed.

 

 

TRUTH

 

A couple posts earlier: In years past, I have helped hundreds of newbie collectors look for the nuances of artificially toned coins and probably have saved them tens of thousands of dollars.

 

[braddick]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

[Zoins]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

Unfortunate but prudent. The risk would be very high.

[truthteller]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

While I can understand your point of view, this forum and the PCGS forums does often expose the wrongs and wrongdoers of the coin hobby. Sometimes only then is the "friendly, helpful" coin seller exposed.

 

 

TRUTH

 

A couple posts earlier: In years past, I have helped hundreds of newbie collectors look for the nuances of artificially toned coins and probably have saved them tens of thousands of dollars.

 

 

 

Thank goodness, I only educate. I hope those blue indian doctors have enough money to eventually buy back all their "work".

 

 

 

TRUTH

[relicsncoins]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

While I can understand your point of view, this forum and the PCGS forums does often expose the wrongs and wrongdoers of the coin hobby. Sometimes only then is the "friendly, helpful" coin seller exposed.

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

Hey, I'm all for exposing fraud, but this is not fraud, and neither is the blue Indian deal. I think people have a problem when a piece of plastic changes their perception of a coin that if raw they would seriously question. Presumably the buyers are buying these coins because they like the look of them. If they find out they were treated with MS70, they then don't like the the look of them? The coin is still the same coin and is still worth the same amount and that is what ever they paid for it. It somewhat reminds me of my daughter who does not like seafood. I give her a taste of something that she really likes and then tell her that it has crab in it, and all of the sudden she doesn't like it anymore.

 

JJ

[gmarguli]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

While I can understand your point of view, this forum and the PCGS forums does often expose the wrongs and wrongdoers of the coin hobby. Sometimes only then is the "friendly, helpful" coin seller exposed.

 

 

TRUTH

 

A couple posts earlier: In years past, I have helped hundreds of newbie collectors look for the nuances of artificially toned coins and probably have saved them tens of thousands of dollars.

 

 

 

Thank goodness, I only educate. I hope those blue indian doctors have enough money to eventually buy back all their "work".

 

TRUTH

 

Most of those people are probably dead. It's been going on almost 100 years.

 

What about all your AT commems?

[MarkFeld]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

Well, Pat, that answers a question I'd had - I had been wondering whether PCGS had contacted you and agreed to take the coin off the market. Whether a mechanical/slabbing error or otherwise, I would think they'd want to do so.

[truthteller]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

While I can understand your point of view, this forum and the PCGS forums does often expose the wrongs and wrongdoers of the coin hobby. Sometimes only then is the "friendly, helpful" coin seller exposed.

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

Hey, I'm all for exposing fraud, but this is not fraud, and neither is the blue Indian deal. I think people have problem when a piece of plastic changes their perception of a coin that if raw they would seriously question. Presumably the buyers are buying these coins because they like the look of them. If they find out they were treated with MS70, they then don't like the the look of them? The coin is still the same coin and is still worth the same amount and that is what ever they paid for it. I somewhat reminds me of my daughter who does not like seafood. I give her a taste of something that she really likes and then tell her that it has crab in it, and all of the sudden she doesn't like it anymore.

 

JJ

 

 

Well, no, the coin is not the same coin, else nothing would have been done to the coin to change the coin's natural appearance. I would compare this to a 1957 chevy classic automobile with new paint. The paint gives the appearance the automobile is newer or nicer than one with dull, liveless original paint. It's the same car, but one has be "altered" to bring more value.

 

 

TRUTH

[Zoins]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

Well, Pat, that answers a question I'd had - I had been wondering whether PCGS had contacted you and agreed to take the coin off the market. Whether a mechanical/slabbing error or otherwise, I would think they'd want to do so.

I think they might want it off the market even if they made no mistake at the time given changing public opinions. This coin has the kool-aid drinkers ATS in such a tizzy.

[truthteller]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

Well, Pat, that answers a question I'd had - I had been wondering whether PCGS had contacted you and agreed to take the coin off the market. Whether a mechanical/slabbing error or otherwise, I would think they'd want to do so.

I think they might want it off the market even if they made no mistake at the time given changing public opinions. This coin as the kool-aid drinkers ATS in such a tizzy.

 

 

All PCGS has to do is "disavow" the coin, thereby no longer enforcing their guarantee, essentially making the coin worth melt value. Then, a deal with the owner is struck to take the coin off the market.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MAULEMALL]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

Well, Pat, that answers a question I'd had - I had been wondering whether PCGS had contacted you and agreed to take the coin off the market. Whether a mechanical/slabbing error or otherwise, I would think they'd want to do so.

I think PCGS might want it off the market even if they made no mistake at the time given changing public opinions. This coin as the kool-aid drinkers ATS in such a tizzy.

 

Even if it was completely legit, I can imagine someone "accidentally" thumbing or dropping the coin in the process.

This is an answer to a post by Russ ATS

 

 

Russ

Coin Ferengi

 

Posts: 55797

Joined: Apr 2002

Thursday April 26, 2007 12:24 PM

 

 

 

 

 

<< I said many coins DEEMED AT by ANACS end up in NGC and PCGS holders. I did not say they were in fact AT. The point is, mistakes are made the other way, and ANACS has bagged many coins as AT which many would suggest are likely not.

 

As for examples -- immediately, I can recall two: Russ picked off a couple ANACS AT Franklin Halves off Teletrade that he subsequently holdered at PCGS (Russ, clarify if I recalled this incorrectly). >>

 

 

 

You recall correctly. Old ANACS was VERY conservative in their approach to toning. There are numerous examples of coins they holdered as AT that are now in PCGS slabs.

 

Russ, NCNE

 

-------------------------

IPOTAD™ Birthmark Die Kennedys.

 

http://www.moderncrap.com

 

Bid safe on eBay! Look for this icon:

 

Maybe PCGS Knew exactly what they were doing

[Zoins]

All PCGS has to do is "disavow" the coin, thereby no longer enforcing their guarantee, essentially making the coin worth melt value. Then, a deal with the owner is struck to take the coin off the market.

This coin is pretty incredible IMO so I hope it always stays in collector hands, whether it's disavowed or not

[relicsncoins]

Why are the buyers of these coins always completely absolved of these AT debaucles? Buying and selling is a two way street. The buyers of these things don't have a gun pointed at their head, they are willing participants. I see absolutely nothing un-ethical about selling a coin like this. The seller makes no false claims about this coin, the coin is not counterfeit. The coin is what it is, and that's a questionably toned piece of silver bullion in a PCGS slab and is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

 

JJ

 

 

In some respects, this is true. The aforementioned coin is so blantant, that even the newbie should question the color. If the newbie wants to spend $200 on it, he will soon find out an easy and somewhat inexpensive lesson on color. However, the newbie who buys blue indians spending thousands of dollars, will be in for a shock upon selling. There is obvious AT, there is subtle AT and there is AT where no one can tell the difference. Education is always best.

TRUTH

 

I'm sorry, I just don't have a lot of sympathy for ignorance/stupidity. If you are out spending thousands of dollars on something you know little about because you have not bothered to do any research, then shame on you.

 

JJ

 

 

While I can understand your point of view, this forum and the PCGS forums does often expose the wrongs and wrongdoers of the coin hobby. Sometimes only then is the "friendly, helpful" coin seller exposed.

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

Hey, I'm all for exposing fraud, but this is not fraud, and neither is the blue Indian deal. I think people have problem when a piece of plastic changes their perception of a coin that if raw they would seriously question. Presumably the buyers are buying these coins because they like the look of them. If they find out they were treated with MS70, they then don't like the the look of them? The coin is still the same coin and is still worth the same amount and that is what ever they paid for it. I somewhat reminds me of my daughter who does not like seafood. I give her a taste of something that she really likes and then tell her that it has crab in it, and all of the sudden she doesn't like it anymore.

 

JJ

 

 

Well, no, the coin is not the same coin, else nothing would have been done to the coin to change the coin's natural appearance. I would compare this to a 1957 chevy classic automobile with new paint. The paint gives the appearance the automobile is newer or nicer than one with dull, liveless original paint. It's the same car, but one has be "altered" to bring more value.

 

 

TRUTH

 

That's arguable, the coins natural/original appearance is that of full fiery red like the day it came off the dies. It's funny how one can remove color/toning from a silver coin to increase it's values as in negative eye appeal ugly toning, but if you add color to a silver coin to increase its value, then you are scum of the earth.

[Doogy]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

Well, Pat, that answers a question I'd had - I had been wondering whether PCGS had contacted you and agreed to take the coin off the market. Whether a mechanical/slabbing error or otherwise, I would think they'd want to do so.

I think they might want it off the market even if they made no mistake at the time given changing public opinions. This coin has the kool-aid drinkers ATS in such a tizzy.

 

 

i agree, that this may end up being bad press for PCGS. But remember when they threatend to shut down their own boards? Hall said that those boards don't make the company any money anyhow. yeah, right! that kinda' arrogance may make them ingore the thread altogether, and hope the hubub goes away. they are too busy slabbing Wash. dollars and other bullion *spoon* like ASEs to care

[MarkFeld]

Hey, I'm all for exposing fraud, but this is not fraud, and neither is the blue Indian deal. I think people have a problem when a piece of plastic changes their perception of a coin that if raw they would seriously question. Presumably the buyers are buying these coins because they like the look of them. If they find out they were treated with MS70, they then don't like the the look of them? The coin is still the same coin and is still worth the same amount and that is what ever they paid for it. It somewhat reminds me of my daughter who does not like seafood. I give her a taste of something that she really likes and then tell her that it has crab in it, and all of the sudden she doesn't like it anymore.JJ

I think the example/comparison of buyers of coins to your daughter and sea food is at least slightly off. A better/more on point comparison would be if your daughter didn't "like"/want to eat sea food because she had a problem with the idea of eating once-living sea creatures. She might like the taste, but not the idea/reality.

 

Likewise, a buyer of a coin might prefer to buy coins he/she thinks haven't been messed with. And, while if he/she is unaware that something has been done to alter the coins' appearance, he/she might like/want it, he/she might pass with the knowledge that something had been done.

 

It's partly about perception and knowledge. And even though some people think it shouldn't (or doesn't) make any difference if a buyer can't tell the difference, it should still be the buyer's right to decide upon what basis he wants to make his/her purchases.

[braddick]

" I would compare this to a 1957 chevy classic automobile with new paint. The paint gives the appearance the automobile is newer or nicer than one with dull, liveless original paint. It's the same car, but one has be "altered" to bring more value."

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

Wouldn't a better example be the owner of the 1957 Chevy simply washing his car? after all, the 'blue Indians' are not being painted, they're being currated- cleaned, so to speak.

 

I don't know much about car collecting, but isn't washing (and detailing/waxing) considered not just acceptable, but encouraged?

 

If not, I see a lot of shiny looking pretty cars at local classic car shows that are breaking the rules!

[relicsncoins]

" I would compare this to a 1957 chevy classic automobile with new paint. The paint gives the appearance the automobile is newer or nicer than one with dull, liveless original paint. It's the same car, but one has be "altered" to bring more value."

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

Wouldn't a better example be the owner of the 1957 Chevy simply washing his car? after all, the 'blue Indians' are not being painted, they're being currated- cleaned, so to speak.

 

I don't know much about car collecting, but isn't washing (and detailing/waxing) considered not just acceptable, but encouraged?

 

If not, I see a lot of shiny looking pretty cars at local classic car shows that are breaking the rules!

 

Your point would be a valid one if my daughter wasn't eating seafood because she had a problem with eating once living sea creatures. However, the real reason she is not eating seafood, is that she has been conditioned by Mommy that seafood tastes yucky, simmilar to the fact that the hobby has conditioned collectors that AT is yucky, however before they new the coin was AT, it was yummy.

 

JJ

[Zoins]

But does washing, detailing and waxing change the color of the car?

[MarkFeld]

That's arguable, the coins natural/original appearance is that of full fiery red like the day it came off the dies. It's funny how one can remove color/toning from a silver coin to increase it's values as in negative eye appeal ugly toning, but if you add color to a silver coin to increase its value, then you are scum of the earth.

Removing color/toning reveals what was underneath it, whereas adding color often masks it. Those are two very different things.

[gmarguli]

Pat, Would you consider getting a TrueView done?

No.

I don't believe I'd ever get the coin back.

Well, Pat, that answers a question I'd had - I had been wondering whether PCGS had contacted you and agreed to take the coin off the market. Whether a mechanical/slabbing error or otherwise, I would think they'd want to do so.

I think they might want it off the market even if they made no mistake at the time given changing public opinions. This coin as the kool-aid drinkers ATS in such a tizzy.

 

 

All PCGS has to do is "disavow" the coin, thereby no longer enforcing their guarantee, essentially making the coin worth melt value. Then, a deal with the owner is struck to take the coin off the market.

 

TRUTH

 

 

That's a complete lie. How about insurance companies disavowing policies right after a disaster? Or a food company disavowing spinach after it sickens hundreds of people?

 

PCGS has a guarantee and they cannot selectively disavow coins. You think a court would allow that?

[braddick]

But does washing, detailing and waxing change the color of the car?

Actually, yes!

 

I've seen a car that was so oxidized it appeared brick, dark red, but once stipped and waxed (a three step process) the car came back to life as a brilliant, fire engine red beauty!

 

Even with that said, your point is not lost on me- and it's a valid one, to a degree.

[relicsncoins]

That's arguable, the coins natural/original appearance is that of full fiery red like the day it came off the dies. It's funny how one can remove color/toning from a silver coin to increase it's values as in negative eye appeal ugly toning, but if you add color to a silver coin to increase its value, then you are scum of the earth.

Removing color/toning reveals what was underneath it, whereas adding color often masks it. Those are two very different things.

 

True, but in both cases you are still altering the "natural" appearance of the coin to increase it's value.

 

JJ

[MAULEMALL]

" I would compare this to a 1957 chevy classic automobile with new paint. The paint gives the appearance the automobile is newer or nicer than one with dull, liveless original paint. It's the same car, but one has be "altered" to bring more value."

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

Wouldn't a better example be the owner of the 1957 Chevy simply washing his car? after all, the 'blue Indians' are not being painted, they're being currated- cleaned, so to speak.

 

I don't know much about car collecting, but isn't washing (and detailing/waxing) considered not just acceptable, but encouraged?

 

If not, I see a lot of shiny looking pretty cars at local classic car shows that are breaking the rules!

 

Your point would be a valid one if my daughter wasn't eating seafood because she had a problem with eating once living sea creatures. However, the real reason she is not eating seafood, is that she has been conditioned by Mommy that seafood tastes yucky, simmilar to the fact that the hobby has conditioned collectors that AT is yucky, however before they new the coin was AT, it was yummy.

 

JJ

I feel your pain....My daughter has been conditioned that way towards steak.

[Cladiator]

Pat, are you going to post a reply on the two threads about this coin at CU?

 

Why should he?

Because, typically, when a dealer's coin is being discused that dealer has good input that the others don't have.