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Toned Proof Jeffersons (AT/Real)?

Started by gmarguli,

44 posts in this topic

FC57coins

FC57coins

Posted
Posted

Gents:

 

Toned nickels have been around for years and have not been slabbed until the recent rage hit. Now, it seems that everyone is saying that they're AT. It should be remembered that many of these nickels were put into capital holders, or other plasticized holders which, along with exposure to air, may have caused the toning to be expedited. Personally I can attest to the fact that in the 1970s I began cutting up mint sets and placing the respective coins into snapon hard plastic holders. When I revisited these coins in the 90's, a lot of the cupro nickel coins had mellowed to a golden color, some more so than others, and some had even taken a blueish hue to them. If per chance there was a reaction between the nickels and the plastic that they were held in, and somehow air was introduced (some mint sets did tend to tear) and this was the cause of toning, it can hardly be argued that the toning is AT. Now, if these coins were subjected to chemicals, heat, or some other means of enhancement, I would wholeheartedly agree that this is wrong, but to penalize an entire sector of the market because a few unscrupulous people have been dinking with nickels is not the way to go in this matter. If the nickels are infact impaired, they would not be going for upwards of $200 each when certified. I challenge the grading companies to come up with a set of guidelines that outlines what is considered AT and what is not, rather than saying "well they just don't look right". To me that is a total cop out.

 

I leave you with a sampling of the nickels I've collected over the years.

 

Frank

 

Colorful%20Jeffs.jpg

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MadMarty-migration

MadMarty-migration

Posted
Posted

I sent 3 raw toned nickels to Rick M. to look at and evaluate. He liked them and sent them through the system for grading. The came back yesterday as questionable toning. Rick send me an E-Mail this morning saying...

 

So I saw the results of. The explanation is that while the color may indeed be real, it is felt that the color would be market unacceptable, thus making it difficult to grade.

 

Sorry it didn't turn out better.

 

Let me know if I can be of help any time in the future.

 

Rick

 

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Leothelion

Leothelion

Posted
Posted

True Patina

Patina is the final result, extending over

years and often centuries of highly varied

external influences on copper and copper

alloys such as bronze and brass.

Patina is formed essentially from the following

influences.

Green patina, leafy green to bluish green,

can occur in the form of basic copper sulfate

from the sulfer dioxide content of urban air. In

the vicinity of the coast it can also contain

salt dissolved in fog droplets (cuprous chloride,

formerly called hemichloride of copper) or

copper iodide. It futher results from air

containing carbon dioxide, in combination

with dirt and moisture, or from carbon dioxide

in soil in connection with organic salts and

salts and is then in the form of basic copper

carbonate. Finally, green patina is a natural

result of verdigris as described in section 313

Red patina, bright red through dark red to violet

consist of coprous oxide produced by decomposition

(reduction) of the cupric oxide formed initially; this

is caused, for example, by organic constituents

of the soil. As the formula indicates, this oxide

contains half the oxygen that is in the original

copper oxide.

Brown patina is either a very thin film of light

brown to red and black copper oxide formed

through the action of oxygen as cupric oxide

or it may be a thick mixture of green and red patina.

(Excerpt from Cleaning and Preservation of Coins and Medals

by Durst

 

Hi everyone

My point is, if you can figure out what would naturally

cause the questionable toning then the toning would

no longer be questionable, now would it? 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

Leo

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
Posted
I sent 3 raw toned nickels to Rick M. to look at and evaluate. He liked them and sent them through the system for grading. The came back yesterday as questionable toning. Rick send me an E-Mail this morning saying...

 

So I saw the results of. The explanation is that while the color may indeed be real, it is felt that the color would be market unacceptable, thus making it difficult to grade.

 

Sorry it didn't turn out better.

 

Let me know if I can be of help any time in the future.

 

Rick

 

Hmmm... I guess that says it all: NGC = market maker = grading service? 893naughty-thumb.gif Seems to fly in the face of THIS THREAD posted May 10, 2003 on the Ask NGC forum...

 

Hoot

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TomB

TomB

Posted
Posted

I sent a toned coin directly to Rick's attention when he was at PCGS and his response to me was exactly the same as it is now. So, both services do it.

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Beijim

Beijim

Posted
Posted
I can guarantee the value of these holdered by PCGS nickels will only go up.

 

That's exactly what they said about tulip bulbs.

 

The statement is meaningless unless conditioned by a specific duration and backed by an escrowed promise to repurchase the coin, inflation adjusted, should the value decline at any time within the duration.

 

Anything else is vaporware.

 

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I can guarantee the value of these holdered by PCGS nickels will only go up.

 

That's exactly what they said about tulip bulbs.

 

The statement is meaningless unless conditioned by a specific duration and backed by an escrowed promise to repurchase the coin, inflation adjusted, should the value decline at any time within the duration.

 

Anything else is vaporware.

 

I think he is referring to the fact that TBT said " I have been told that no more will be graded at this time by PCGS and NGC has never slabbed them. " Since PCGS wised up to these and NGC never fell for them the supply in PCGS slabs is limited to what is out there right now.

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Tonekiller-migration

Tonekiller-migration

Posted
Posted

 

I think he is referring to the fact that TBT said " I have been told that no more will be graded at this time by PCGS and NGC has never slabbed them. " Since PCGS wised up to these and NGC never fell for them the supply in PCGS slabs is limited to what is out there right now.

 

Greg,

 

You are making a bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions about these coins and PCGS. As stated before, both NGC and PCGS are professional grading services and their combined intellectual skills in grading and detecting far outweigh most in the industry. Decisions on toners are usually made by a group of graders and not just one plus the final review process.

 

While I do not always agree on the results both slabbed and bagged from the services, I have learned to respect their knowledge and trust their collective judgment.

 

 

Bryan (TBT)

 

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Hoot

Hoot

Posted
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"Since PCGS wised up to these and NGC never fell for them the supply in PCGS slabs is limited to what is out there right now."

 

Greg - This is simply not true. Take a look at the link I posted above.

 

Hoot

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gmarguli

gmarguli

Posted
  • Author
Posted

 

I think he is referring to the fact that TBT said " I have been told that no more will be graded at this time by PCGS and NGC has never slabbed them. " Since PCGS wised up to these and NGC never fell for them the supply in PCGS slabs is limited to what is out there right now.

 

You are making a bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions about these coins and PCGS. As stated before, both NGC and PCGS are professional grading services and their combined intellectual skills in grading and detecting far outweigh most in the industry. Decisions on toners are usually made by a group of graders and not just one plus the final review process.

 

 

Bryan,

 

I am not questioning any of the grading services ability to detect AT. I'm sure overall they are very good at it. That does NOT mean they don't let AT coins slip thru. I'm sure you would admit this. smile.gif

 

This thread was started to hear peoples opinions on the coins I pictured and to get a discussion going as to why there are so many of these coins on the market right now. I don't believe I ever gave my opinion on whether they are AT or NT. Same for the ones you sold to JB. I just asked what people thought.

 

I just find it odd that you say PCGS won't slab any more of these and the reason you posted for this is that "a bunch of AT nickels are hitting the services." Are you saying that these coins are AT and they have now come to that conclusion or that there are so many AT nickels hitting PCGS that they can't tell the difference between these "NT" ones and the AT ones?

 

In your opinion are these coins AT or NT?

 

What does PCGS's decision to not slab any more of these and their statement to you of "a bunch of AT nickels are hitting the services" mean to you? You were the one there and I'd like to know how you interpreted what they said.

 

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BushMan

BushMan

Posted
Posted

A sunburst of orange and yellow right on the high point of the reverse?? Nahhh! That coin received too much heat in the middle of the reverse. Wahla! Sunburst orange/yellow within the high point and fully encapsulated within that highpoint triangle. That coin doesn't make it into a quality holder. That coin is AT.

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