Everyone Needs to "Doctor" Coins

[MarkFeld]

Depending on what exactly you refer to as deceitful, it ranges from zero care and concern to strong dislike.

 

You know what the word means. What kind of deceit causes "zero care" on your part?

 

A zero feedback seller in China selling a raw Trade dollar on eBay where the coin doesn't even look real. This stuff suckers in a lot of stupid people and I laugh at the losers who are purchasing these coins.

 

Happy now?

 

I'm pretty bored with your Q&A of hoping to pigeonhole me.

Greg, so if "stupid people" are deceived, you have "zero care"? Why should a person's intelligence level determine how you feel when he or she is deceived or has a fraud perpetrated upon him/her? Again, it appears that you are blaming the wrong party.

[IGWT]

I'm pretty bored with your Q&A of hoping to pigeonhole me.

 

You're kidding, right? You "pigeonholed" yourself long ago without any help from me. I'm just trying to understand better what you do and why you do it. It's also fascinating to see how a smart person can abandon logic to justify his actions.

[gmarguli]

Depending on what exactly you refer to as deceitful, it ranges from zero care and concern to strong dislike.

 

You know what the word means. What kind of deceit causes "zero care" on your part?

 

A zero feedback seller in China selling a raw Trade dollar on eBay where the coin doesn't even look real. This stuff suckers in a lot of stupid people and I laugh at the losers who are purchasing these coins.

 

Happy now?

 

I'm pretty bored with your Q&A of hoping to pigeonhole me.

Greg, so if "stupid people" are deceived, you have "zero care"? Why should a person's intelligence level determine how you feel when he or she is deceived or has a fraud perpetrated upon him/her? Again, it appears that you are blaming the wrong party.

 

Because in the case I mentioned above - and I believe that is a fair example for what IGWT asked for - if the stupid person had done even the slightest amount of homework, they'd not have been taken. I have no sympathy and have zero care for situations like this. You can't save everybody. You might as well try to save those that try to save themselves!

[Bruceswar]

Depending on what exactly you refer to as deceitful, it ranges from zero care and concern to strong dislike.

 

You know what the word means. What kind of deceit causes "zero care" on your part?

 

A zero feedback seller in China selling a raw Trade dollar on eBay where the coin doesn't even look real. This stuff suckers in a lot of stupid people and I laugh at the losers who are purchasing these coins.

 

Happy now?

 

I'm pretty bored with your Q&A of hoping to pigeonhole me.

Greg, so if "stupid people" are deceived, you have "zero care"? Why should a person's intelligence level determine how you feel when he or she is deceived or has a fraud perpetrated upon him/her? Again, it appears that you are blaming the wrong party.

 

Because in the case I mentioned above - and I believe that is a fair example for what IGWT asked for - if the stupid person had done even the slightest amount of homework, they'd not have been taken. I have no sympathy and have zero care for situations like this. You can't save everybody. You might as well try to save those that try to save themselves!

 

I 100% agree with greg. If you are dumb enough to bid on these very poor fakes you need to learn the hard way. Even the slightest bit of info will keep you away from these. There is deception and then there is plain stupid. The stupid people of this world cannot be helped I am sorry to say. Education is the key to not getting screwed in any facit of life.

[IGWT]

I 100% agree with greg. If you are dumb enough to bid on these very poor fakes you need to learn the hard way. Even the slightest bit of info will keep you away from these. There is deception and then there is plain stupid. The stupid people of this world cannot be helped I am sorry to say. Education is the key to not getting screwed in any facit of life.

 

Sure. And the woman who walks alone through the bad part of town late at night deserves what she gets at the hands of bad guys. How stupid can you be, right?

[bsshog40]

Ain't that the same as a woman who dresses sexy is asking to be raped?

[Bruceswar]

I 100% agree with greg. If you are dumb enough to bid on these very poor fakes you need to learn the hard way. Even the slightest bit of info will keep you away from these. There is deception and then there is plain stupid. The stupid people of this world cannot be helped I am sorry to say. Education is the key to not getting screwed in any facit of life.

 

Sure. And the woman who walks alone through the bad part of town late at night deserves what she gets at the hands of bad guys. How stupid can you be, right?

 

We are talking coins, not people.... Just because she is walking in the dark does not mean she deserves it. But you cannot tell me she did not know what she was up aginst. Coins vs people are 2 different things. Lets not get the 2 crossed. Coins cost money, peoples lifes are priceless. Coins can be replaced, peoples lifes cannot.

[IGWT]

We are talking coins, not people.... Just because she is walking in the dark does not mean she deserves it. But you cannot tell me she did not know what she was up aginst. Coins vs people are 2 different things. Lets not get the 2 crossed. Coins cost money, peoples lifes are priceless. Coins can be replaced, peoples lifes cannot.

 

First, my example didn't make the distinction necessary. Maybe the bad guys stole a purse that held the woman's life savings. If that's the case, we're talking money, not lives. And, according to you, her stupidity brought what she deserves. The bad guys are off the hook.

 

Second, the distinction that you try to draw doesn't make sense to me. Wrong is wrong regardless of whether it deprives a person of life or property.

[Bruceswar]

No the bad guys are not off the hook. But for the same token neither is she. Per say if you go to a night club in a rough part of town, there is a chance of bad things happening. You know what you are getting into. Now that is not to say I wish bad things to happen on anybody, but you sure do up the anti when you go.Money is money, and peolpe are people. Give me money problems anybody over someones life. All I am saying is a quick check on whats going on either in life, coins or whatever will save you alot of grief.

[braddick]

If this thread lasts long enough the word, "Nazi" and/or "Hitler" is bound to be used. . .

[IGWT]

If this thread lasts long enough the word, "Nazi" and/or "Hitler" is bound to be used. . .

 

Look at the picture in Greg's opening post . . . I think we can skip Nazi and go right to Satan.

[MarkFeld]

We are talking coins, not people.... Just because she is walking in the dark does not mean she deserves it. But you cannot tell me she did not know what she was up aginst. Coins vs people are 2 different things. Lets not get the 2 crossed. Coins cost money, peoples lifes are priceless. Coins can be replaced, peoples lifes cannot.

 

First, my example didn't make the distinction necessary. Maybe the bad guys stole a purse that held the woman's life savings. If that's the case, we're talking money, not lives. And, according to you, her stupidity brought what she deserves. The bad guys are off the hook.

 

Second, the distinction that you try to draw doesn't make sense to me. Wrong is wrong regardless of whether it deprives a person of life or property.

I agree, and wrong is wrong, whether the wronged person is stupid or smart. In neither case should the person engaging in deceit or fraud be let off the hook.

[michael]

In neither case should the person engaging in deceit or fraud be let off the hook.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I am responding strictly to the opening post (didn't read the others yet, before responding). I'm in total agreement with the argument that if you've never doctored a coin, how do you know for sure what doctoring can do?

 

Ironically, on a related note, I have never bought and never owned even a single drop of coin dip. The doctoring I'm referring to for experimentation is whizzing, recoloring, etc.

[James_OldeTowne]

I wonder sometimes if you actually listen to yourself. If a homeowner pays a roofer to install 20-year shingles, and the roofer installs 10-year shingles to increase his profit, do you blame homeowner? If a person buys a car with 10,000 miles on it, but the car dealer turned back the odometer from 30,000 miles for financial gain, do you blame the buyer? If someone purchases a top-of-the-line stereo, but the stereo fails after 1 month because the shop owner replaced good electronics with cheap *spoon* to save some money, do you blame the buyer? The list of examples is as long as the list of methods to alter coins.

 

You also didn't answer my question. Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts that require collectors to become doctors themselves to avoid being defrauded?

IGWT, I'd like to address what I see as a difference between your scenarios, and that of doctoring coins. In none of your examples would deceiving the buyer into lesser quality ever be considered beneficial. However, in the case of coins, there have been countless instances of doctoring being considered beneficial to coins. "Restoration" is much different from your scenarios.

 

I am not justifying coin doctoring in a blanket manner. I can't stand it when someone takes a normal, faultless $35 blast-white Morgan and adds rainbow toning with sulphur compound. On the other hand, I own several coins that have been burnished, scrubbed, or otherwise "helped", and they benefited from processing (in my opinion).

 

In short, I can think of scenarios where coin doctoring is beneficial.

 

But I can't think of ANY scenario for which rolling the odometer of a car back 30,000 miles benefits the buyer.

 

You know what the word means. What kind of deceit causes "zero care" on your part?

 

A zero feedback seller in China selling a raw Trade dollar on eBay where the coin doesn't even look real. This stuff suckers in a lot of stupid people and I laugh at the losers who are purchasing these coins.

 

Happy now?

 

I'm pretty bored with your Q&A of hoping to pigeonhole me.

Greg, so if "stupid people" are deceived, you have "zero care"? Why should a person's intelligence level determine how you feel when he or she is deceived or has a fraud perpetrated upon him/her? Again, it appears that you are blaming the wrong party.

 

Because in the case I mentioned above - and I believe that is a fair example for what IGWT asked for - if the stupid person had done even the slightest amount of homework, they'd not have been taken. I have no sympathy and have zero care for situations like this. You can't save everybody. You might as well try to save those that try to save themselves!

 

I 100% agree with greg. If you are dumb enough to bid on these very poor fakes you need to learn the hard way. Even the slightest bit of info will keep you away from these. There is deception and then there is plain stupid. The stupid people of this world cannot be helped I am sorry to say. Education is the key to not getting screwed in any facit of life.

 

Unlike Bruce, I am only in 80% agreement. The problem is (for that 20% of disagreement) that some people will not know what a Trade dollar is "supposed" to look like, but simply want to own a neat coin. As a counterexample, I would love to own a meteor fragment. But what is it supposed to look like? Someone could pluck a rock out of their backyard, burn it in the fireplace, and in a moment of weakness, probably convince me that it's a meteor fragment.

 

Now, I admit to 20% responsibilty for not researching it, but it doesn't relieve the deceitful seller of his 80% responsibility for fraud.

 

I don't agree with Bruce that "the slightest bit of info" keeps EVERY average consumer away from problems like these. It takes a little more (maybe a lot more) info than "the slightest bit" to protect oneself from all possible fraudulent situations.

[okbustchaser]

Greg and IGWT's statements concerning a lack of sympathy for a person who is unwilling to do at least a modicum of homework concerning what is supposed to be a FUN HOBBY in no way absolve the seller of a fake Trade dollar. They merely point out that personal responsiblity has its place, too. I agree, wholeheartedly.

[MarkFeld]

Greg and IGWT's statements concerning a lack of sympathy for a person who is unwilling to do at least a modicum of homework concerning what is supposed to be a FUN HOBBY in no way absolve the seller of a fake Trade dollar. They merely point out that personal responsiblity has its place, too. I agree, wholeheartedly.

I think there is a significant difference between "personal responsiblity has its place" and the attitude that a stupid buyer that has been ripped off, got what he deserved.The latter appears to be the attitude of one or more posters here.

[Bruceswar]

James, I should rephrase to say the slightest research will keep you at least in the ballpark. You will know a SGS graded morgan is not MS 67 PL, but alot less. How much less is a guess. Any either rate, it is best for a person to have thier own knowledge.

[CTcollector1]

WIth TPG's so permissive these days, its no great feat to commercially enhance a coin and get it into a holder for profit. Although some are more skilled than others, just about anyone with the right (or wrong) motivation can accomplish this.

 

If you are serious about the hobby, my advice would be to gravitate towards numismatic professionals and traditionalists for guidance and away from commercial dealers and knuckle heads.

[MrEureka-migration]

Is there something controversial about the OP? If so, I don't get it.

[Zoins]

Imagine coins were like currency and had government serial numbers that made tracking easier. Would people be surprised by what can and has been done?

[Doogy]

Ain't that the same as a woman who dresses sexy is asking to be raped?

 

yup, in Criminology circles, they call it "blaming the victim". there are lots of temptations out there for people to cross the ethical line, some minor, some not so minor. A vast majority of people out there are never tempted to rape a person based on how they are dressed or act, but a lot whole more people are tempted to commit much more petty crimes like selling counterfeit merchandise to the unsuspecting. If a person is selling something that they know to be either fake, counterfeit or altered, they are usually committing some sort of crime at worst, or certainly just unethical at the least. While a buyer should inform themselves a bit about things to know enough about these type of people to avoid, you can't blame the victim that they were swindled out of their money by a criminal no more than you can blame an unfortunate rape victim that happened to be wearing a mini-skirt that day.

[Doogy]

No the bad guys are not off the hook. But for the same token neither is she. Per say if you go to a night club in a rough part of town, there is a chance of bad things happening. You know what you are getting into. Now that is not to say I wish bad things to happen on anybody, but you sure do up the anti when you go.Money is money, and peolpe are people. Give me money problems anybody over someones life. All I am saying is a quick check on whats going on either in life, coins or whatever will save you alot of grief.

 

 

sure, you're point is correct about knowing your surroundings to help you out, but our laws and norms were set in place to protect the percentage of people that are innocent and clueless. If 90% of the population is "with it" (and i don't believe the number is that high), it gives them no carte blanche to victimize those who don't "get it". This is true regardless if you're speaking of an FBI violent Index crime like murder or rape, or a lesser crime like larceny.

[okbustchaser]

The bottom line is that it is impossible to swindle an "honest man". If he is such a big hurry to "steal" a 10,000 dollar coin for 595.00 that he can't be bothered to do at least a little research then yes, he IS responsible for being cheated.

[IGWT]

The bottom line is that it is impossible to swindle an "honest man".

 

Tell that to the thousands of elderly people who fall victim to swindlers every year. Honest, trusting, and unsophisticated people are marked for a reason.

[okbustchaser]

Yes, even those elderly people who want to buy a new roof from someone they have never heard of (and who no one else in town is familiar with either such as BBB) for a third of what a legitimate contractor would charge.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

[WinstonWare]

The bottom line is that it is impossible to swindle an "honest man".

 

Tell that to the thousands of elderly people who fall victim to swindlers every year. Honest, trusting, and unsophisticated people are marked for a reason.

 

I wrote this in a separate thread but people buy me coins for the holidays and my birthday. The coins are invariably cleaned or have some other ill-effect. It’s hard to tell these people not to buy me coins while they are eagerly watching me open their present, waiting for my reaction. These are good honest people that I am speaking of.

[IGWT]

Yes, even those elderly people who want to buy a new roof from someone they have never heard of (and who no one else in town is familiar with either such as BBB) for a third of what a legitimate contractor would charge.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

They're not so lucky as to pay just a third of the normal price. Usually, it's full price or more. Too bad, so sad. Right? The lack of empathy astounds me.

[gmarguli]

Yes, even those elderly people who want to buy a new roof from someone they have never heard of (and who no one else in town is familiar with either such as BBB) for a third of what a legitimate contractor would charge.

 

There is no such thing as a free lunch.

 

They're not so lucky as to pay just a third of the normal price. Usually, it's full price or more. Too bad, so sad. Right? The lack of empathy astounds me.

 

The lack of common sense astounds me.

[WinstonWare]

2) Books can't teach you. You need to experience things.

 

Greg has a point here. As much as I love a well written book and do think that there is much to be gained from reading them, there can be some misinformation:

 

“Bust Half Fever: Second Edition” pg 67 paragraph 5

 

“…Others have tried products like MS70, an industrial strength coin brightener, which contains no acid and will not discolor silver, gold, bronze or copper”