Everyone Needs to "Doctor" Coins

[gmarguli]

Yes, I'm 100% serious. Don't you believe that you should understand why coins look a certain way before spending money on them?

 

Coins are nothing more than reactive metal. If you don't understand how metal reacts to certain things, then how will you recognize it when you see it?

 

The industry is filled with Slab Dealers that know very little about working coins. Some will rant and rave about the doctors, but don't assume they know more about worked coins than your local collector-type dealer. Chances are he knows more. They know more because they actually do work on coins to make them look their best. Consider this:

• Want to crack a 5K coin to see if you can lighten the toning to get a grade bump? Most slab dealers wouldn't risk it. However, there are several well compensated dealers that will risk it - and I mean WELL compensated for their actions. And many of the ivory tower dealers actually use the services of those that have the knowledge and guts.
   
  
• How about a $20 raw coin? Think those collector dealers will risk that? Of course they will! They've likely tried several combinations of chemicals they sell in their own shop and know what will happen.

If you're going to spend your hard earned money on coins, you should understand what to look for. Personally, I go for attractive coins. I don't really care how they got attractive - but at least I know how it happened.

 

Everyone needs to get a bunch of junk coins and start working them to see what happens. Pick up some MS70, Ez-Est (Jeweluster), Blue Ribbon, acetone, Dellers Darkener, Koinsolve, Care, Uni-Solvent, household chemicals/cleaners, etc. Start flaming, baking, freezing them and seeing the different reactions. Use cold water, warm water, and hot water and see the different results. If you dip copper, then gold, then silver, will you get a different result than dipping, gold, then silver, and then copper?

 

Ignore the dealer who sits in their ivory tower complaining about the doctors and every now and again runs into a slabbed coin that has turned, yet their case is filled with worked coins they don't have a clue about! Focus on your local dealer that deals in lower value stuff and understands what they need to do to max out their profit on a coin. You'll learn a lot more this way. You'll also learn a lot by working the coins yourself. Or, you can sit there with your finger up your nose and complain that coins aren't a hobby anymore and mommy didn't protect you from the bad coin doctors.

 

Flame away!

 

Actual picture of me typing this post!

[MarkFeld]

No flaming from me, at least for now. I think that suggestion makes a great deal of sense, for educational purposes. I would add, that in my opinion, if any such coins are later given away or sold, full disclosure should be made. And yes, I realize that eventually someone will probably eventually end up with a doctored coin and not know it's been worked on.

[Hoot]

 

Sissy.

 

And your post is the same old trash you always talk.

 

 

Hoot

[MAULEMALL]

 

Sissy.

 

And your post is the same old trash you always talk.

 

 

Hoot

Hoot , you kill me

 

On topic,,,Knowledge is and always will be power,,

[braddick]

Got to love NGC STAR brightly colored NEON Morgans. Afterall, that's exactly the way they came out of all those Mint canvas bags, right?

 

 

[gmarguli]

Sissy.

 

And your post is the same old trash you always talk.

 

 

Hoot

 

It's times like these I'm thankful that I've got your credit card info on the invoice that was sent to me along with your address. Let's see, what does Hoot want to buy, but just doesn't know it yet?

[MarkFeld]

Got to love NGC STAR brightly colored NEON Morgans. Afterall, that's exactly the way they came out of all those Mint canvas bags, right?

 

 

Pat, is it that you think, strongly suspect or KNOW that coin has been "intentionally toned"? Thanks.

[braddick]

Mark,

You got me.

I only suspect, I don't know. . .

 

[WoodenJefferson]

[MarkFeld]

Pat, no need to fret - I was just curious as to your level of suspicion regarding the color.

[Hoot]

Sissy.

 

And your post is the same old trash you always talk.

 

 

Hoot

 

It's times like these I'm thankful that I've got your credit card info on the invoice that was sent to me along with your address. Let's see, what does Hoot want to buy, but just doesn't know it yet?

 

Bring it on coin doctor!

 

Hoot

[MAULEMALL]

Sissy.

 

And your post is the same old trash you always talk.

 

 

Hoot

 

It's times like these I'm thankful that I've got your credit card info on the invoice that was sent to me along with your address. Let's see, what does Hoot want to buy, but just doesn't know it yet?

 

Bring it on coin doctor!

 

Hoot

[IGWT]

Everyone needs to get a bunch of junk coins and start working them to see what happens. Pick up some MS70, Ez-Est (Jeweluster), Blue Ribbon, acetone, Dellers Darkener, Koinsolve, Care, Uni-Solvent, household chemicals/cleaners, etc. Start flaming, baking, freezing them and seeing the different reactions. Use cold water, warm water, and hot water and see the different results. If you dip copper, then gold, then silver, will you get a different result than dipping, gold, then silver, and then copper?

 

Can't I just wait for publication of Truth's book?

[gmarguli]

Everyone needs to get a bunch of junk coins and start working them to see what happens. Pick up some MS70, Ez-Est (Jeweluster), Blue Ribbon, acetone, Dellers Darkener, Koinsolve, Care, Uni-Solvent, household chemicals/cleaners, etc. Start flaming, baking, freezing them and seeing the different reactions. Use cold water, warm water, and hot water and see the different results. If you dip copper, then gold, then silver, will you get a different result than dipping, gold, then silver, and then copper?

 

Can't I just wait for publication of Truth's book?

 

No.

 

1) Truth may have an unfortunate accident where he shoots himself in the back 6 times with a single bolt action rifle before that books gets published. Lots of big money, bad people would not be happy to see a lot of info exposed.

 

2) Books can't teach you. You need to experience things.

[Count_Erfit]

Once a coin is IN the plastic, it's so HARD to smell the ROI-TANs.

 

[Count_Erfit]

30...no...make it 36 years ago, the guy who got me STARTED in coins was still doing his doctoral thesis. We ran amok in the UOP School of Pharmacy lab and found all SORTSA stuff. Had we not been so drunk, we might even have REMEMBERED what we used when we came up with a GRADING fluid.

Whatever it was, we tried it on an AU silver quarter and the unworn surface turned blue and the worn areas went sorta orangey pink.

 

Not that it's pertinent, but there are chemicals that turn coins different colors.

 

Sulfurated Potash is one I remember. Coins in Kraft envelopes in a can with some Sulfurated Potash chunks and left for a few days (hours, weeks) actually looked pretty good as they darkened gradually.

 

Back in those days, some chemicals were available that probably don't have any use today.

[pendragon1998]

No flaming from me, at least for now. I think that suggestion makes a great deal of sense, for educational purposes. I would add, that in my opinion, if any such coins are later given away or sold, full disclosure should be made. And yes, I realize that eventually someone will probably eventually end up with a doctored coin and not know it's been worked on.

 

For educational purposes, I took a butane lighter to this nickel. Interesting results, although obviously AT. Just to ensure that it was understood to be AT, I scratched "AT" into the surface.

 

[MarkFeld]

No flaming from me, at least for now. I think that suggestion makes a great deal of sense, for educational purposes. I would add, that in my opinion, if any such coins are later given away or sold, full disclosure should be made. And yes, I realize that eventually someone will probably eventually end up with a doctored coin and not know it's been worked on.

 

For educational purposes, I took a butane lighter to this nickel. Interesting results, although obviously AT. Just to ensure that it was understood to be AT, I scratched "AT" into the surface.

 

Many collectors will not know what the letters on the back of that coin signify - seriously.

[Dcoin]

I love the idea, however when you do get really good at "educating yourself" the temptation is there to start selling these coins. I know nobody on this forum would dream of it, but its a strong temptation for people looking to score a quick buck.

[pendragon1998]

Well, there's only so much one can do to save people from themselves.

 

Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 218: "Always know what you're buying."

[IGWT]

Yes, I'm 100% serious. Don't you believe that you should understand why coins look a certain way before spending money on them?

 

. . . .

 

Everyone needs to get a bunch of junk coins and start working them to see what happens. Pick up some MS70, Ez-Est (Jeweluster), Blue Ribbon, acetone, Dellers Darkener, Koinsolve, Care, Uni-Solvent, household chemicals/cleaners, etc. Start flaming, baking, freezing them and seeing the different reactions. Use cold water, warm water, and hot water and see the different results. If you dip copper, then gold, then silver, will you get a different result than dipping, gold, then silver, and then copper?

 

I've read your criticisms of people who spend their money without understanding what they're buying. Where's your criticism of people who make it necessary for collectors to conduct laboratory experiments if they want to avoid being the victims of fraud?

 

And, anyhow, don't you think you're advice is just a bit facile? There's no end to the different chemicals and procedures that can be used to affect the appearance of coins; so, there's really no chance for collectors to catch up to the professional doctors. In fact, a little experimentation might serve only to give collectors a false sense of security.

 

But, in the spirit of keeping an open mind to your suggestion, here's what I came up with on short notice and without any experience. I can't say that I feel any smarter. My first doctored coin (and it looks much nicer in hand when you tip it into the light ):

 

[gmarguli]

I've read your criticisms of people who spend their money without understanding what they're buying. Where's your criticism of people who make it necessary for collectors to conduct laboratory experiments if they want to avoid being the victims of fraud?

 

If some people feel it is too much work to understand what they are buying, then I suggest they not buy. We're talking about a purchase for their hobby. If they can't invest enough time into learning before buying, too bad. Life is harsh!

 

Other than driving, I have zero knowledge about the workings of a car. If I were to purchase a used car without learning before hand and got stuck with a lemon, whose fault would it be? Personally, I'd say it is 100% mine. However, some people would blame others.

 

 

 

And, anyhow, don't you think you're advice is just a bit facile? There's no end to the different chemicals and procedures that can be used to affect the appearance of coins; so, there's really no chance for collectors to catch up to the professional doctors. In fact, a little experimentation might serve only to give collectors a false sense of security.

 

Incorrect. You can see how metals react to certain things. From this you will get a great understanding of what can and likely cannot be done. You can use this knowledge to make a good guess as to the circumstances surrounding the look of a coin. Believe me, when I hear some of the stuff people do, I'm amazed at what people will think of. I may not be able to tell 100% of the time when something has been done to a coin, but I've got a solid base of knowledge and that is something most people cannot say. And that is why some people are surprised when things are posted on these forums.

 

And if you don't know what will happen when you use chemicals available at most coin shops, then you are clearly not in a position to purchase coins. Period!

[IGWT]

If some people feel it is too much work to understand what they are buying, then I suggest they not buy. We're talking about a purchase for their hobby. If they can't invest enough time into learning before buying, too bad. Life is harsh!

 

I wonder sometimes if you actually listen to yourself. If a homeowner pays a roofer to install 20-year shingles, and the roofer installs 10-year shingles to increase his profit, do you blame homeowner? If a person buys a car with 10,000 miles on it, but the car dealer turned back the odometer from 30,000 miles for financial gain, do you blame the buyer? If someone purchases a top-of-the-line stereo, but the stereo fails after 1 month because the shop owner replaced good electronics with cheap *spoon* to save some money, do you blame the buyer? The list of examples is as long as the list of methods to alter coins.

 

You also didn't answer my question. Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts that require collectors to become doctors themselves to avoid being defrauded?

[MarkFeld]

If some people feel it is too much work to understand what they are buying, then I suggest they not buy. We're talking about a purchase for their hobby. If they can't invest enough time into learning before buying, too bad. Life is harsh!

 

I wonder sometimes if you actually listen to yourself. If a homeowner pays a roofer to install 20-year shingles, and the roofer installs 10-year shingles to increase his profit, do you blame homeowner? If a person buys a car with 10,000 miles on it, but the car dealer turned back the odometer from 30,000 miles for financial gain, do you blame the buyer? If someone purchases a top-of-the-line stereo, but the stereo fails after 1 month because the shop owner replaced good electronics with cheap *spoon* to save some money, do you blame the buyer? The list of examples is as long as the list of methods to alter coins.

 

You also didn't answer my question. Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts that require collectors to become doctors themselves to avoid being defrauded?

Greg, I think the above raises good points, as well as a fair question. It's one thing to suggest that a person/buyer should be responsible for his actions/purchases. But you seem to excuse, if not ignore the fact that there is deceit and fraud being committed by coin doctors. You also seem to blame the non-expert buyers, while at the same time, excusing the coin doctors from their activities.

[gmarguli]

I wonder sometimes if you actually listen to yourself. If a homeowner pays a roofer to install 20-year shingles, and the roofer installs 10-year shingles to increase his profit, do you blame homeowner? If a person buys a car with 10,000 miles on it, but the car dealer turned back the odometer from 30,000 miles for financial gain, do you blame the buyer? If someone purchases a top-of-the-line stereo, but the stereo fails after 1 month because the shop owner replaced good electronics with cheap *spoon* to save some money, do you blame the buyer? The list of examples is as long as the list of methods to alter coins.

 

Yes, but those are usually one-time purchases. If someone purchased shingles as a hobby and couldn't tell the difference between 20-year and 10-year because they didn't bother to learn, then yes, I would blame the buyer for being sold 10-year as 20-year.

 

I guess I just put more of an onus on people when a hobby and repeating purchase is involved.

 

 

You also didn't answer my question. Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts that require collectors to become doctors themselves to avoid being defrauded?

 

I don't consider having people spend a little time learning as forcing them to become doctors. If someone purchased a coin that graded VG as EF, I wouldn't absolve the buyer with the lame excuse that we're forcing them to become expert coin graders to avoid being defrauded. I'd want to know why they didn't do any homework before making their purchase.

[bsshog40]

I can remember a post like this some time ago. I can't remember all the facts, but someone on ebay was selling a coin way over it's value due to mis-leading information in the auction. Someone was also bidding high dollars for it. There was mention here on the forum about the buyer should know what he's doing and he was fool if he didn't have the knowledge to know this auction was a scam. It sounds like what this post has turned in to. Not everyone is knowledgeable of coins. Not everone is knowledgeable of different chemicals and how they effect certain metals. Not everyone has the abilities or resources to get the knowledge they prefer. 1/3 of the american population either does not have access or will not get access to the internet. That's alot of people. There are alot of books out there for knowledge, but for every book published, I would bet there are 100 more different types of fraudulent coins being doctored or counterfieted. I think the only people to blame would be the fruadulent people trying to pass off these coins without giving pertinent information about the coin and how it came to be!!

[IGWT]

You also didn't answer my question. Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts that require collectors to become doctors themselves to avoid being defrauded?

 

I don't consider having people spend a little time learning as forcing them to become doctors. . . .

 

You're quibbling. Let me remove the words that are giving you a problem and ask the question this way: Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts?

[gmarguli]

You also didn't answer my question. Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts that require collectors to become doctors themselves to avoid being defrauded?

 

I don't consider having people spend a little time learning as forcing them to become doctors. . . .

 

You're quibbling. Let me remove the words that are giving you a problem and ask the question this way: Where is your criticism of people who commit the deceitful acts?

 

Depending on what exactly you refer to as deceitful, it ranges from zero care and concern to strong dislike.

[IGWT]

Depending on what exactly you refer to as deceitful, it ranges from zero care and concern to strong dislike.

 

You know what the word means. What kind of deceit causes "zero care" on your part?

[gmarguli]

Depending on what exactly you refer to as deceitful, it ranges from zero care and concern to strong dislike.

 

You know what the word means. What kind of deceit causes "zero care" on your part?

 

A zero feedback seller in China selling a raw Trade dollar on eBay where the coin doesn't even look real. This stuff suckers in a lot of stupid people and I laugh at the losers who are purchasing these coins.

 

Happy now?

 

I'm pretty bored with your Q&A of hoping to pigeonhole me.