Possibly controversial thread about grading services

[EVillageProwler]

Mostly over on the CU message board, I encounter periodic flareups of grading service partisanship. It gets so bad sometimes that when you poo-poo one service for something, that service's partisans automatically think there must be an agenda other than good consumerism.

 

So, let me ask people to state the POSITIVE REASONS why you like a particular service. Please do not use this opportunity to say anything negative. We only want to hear the good. And, please limit the commentary to that which relates to grading. For example, turn-around time is related, but message board quality is not related.

 

I think this will help newbies acclimate themselves to professional 3rd-party grading from a positive angle.

 

Thanks,

 

EVP

 

[Hoot]

The three I use: NGC, PCGS, and ANACS. (I look at a lot of other coins in slabs other than those mentioned, but have no direct experience with their services).

 

NGC: The most consistent service with respect to grading any single coin. I have made several resubmissions, cracked coins from other service's slabs, and have had coins conserved through NCS and in all but one case (an upgrade) they come back the same grade. (Frustrating at times, as I have graded a couple of coins solidly higher). They do not overgrade coins. As for my personally favorite coins (nickels), they are stupendously consistent and they are far more strict from grade to grade than either of the two other services I use. I like how they handle toned coins and their designations of cameo contrasts. I like their variety designation services (but not how they handle them in their registries). Their customer services cannot be outranked. They are wonderful to "little guys" like me, even though I have no commercial practices.

 

PCGS: Their turn-around times for grading are excellent. They are always on or ahead of the mark. They are inconsistent in their grading but they usually do not overgrade, which I find to be the worst of the evils. As for my favorite coins, they designate 5-step Jefferson nickels as "full steps" in keeping with the rules of the Full Step Nickel Club and a long history of what is considered full steps by J nickel collectors.

 

ANACS: They grade problem coins. They have the balls to step up and deal with that segment of coins that still deserve collection but the other services are too snobby to put in their holders. They are fairly consistent, although I have not tested them as I have the other services and my statement is made more on the basis of looking at coins in their holders. Their variety attribution service is excellent. As for my favorite series, they are nearly as strict in their grading nickels as NGC. For Jefferson nickels, they also designate 5, 5.5, and 6 steps on the insert. (NGC should take note and start placing step formulae on theirs). ANACS has the best looking and feeling slab - not too large and not too overbearing. (However, for large coins, I have no idea what they would do).

 

Those are my positives with my sliding jabs (sorry EVP).

 

Hoot

[Fairlaneman]

Speaking here only about the series I collect.

 

Rarely will you see slide marks (Or may be construed as hairlines) on a PCGS MS64 or higher graded Merc Dime. Also appears to me that the more Original looking Dimes end up in the PCGS holders.

 

Who is to say that the Dimes were not in NGC Holders to begin with though.

 

Ken

[IrishMike]

Partisanship doesn't bother me when it is well thought out. As a long time collector I am impervious to these comments. It just saddens me when I see comments made like that, which might affect the purchases of new collectors. They deserve honest, well thought out opinions, based on experience, not because one is all wrapped up in a grading services registry and feel the knee-jerk need to react.

 

I have never submitted a coin and most of my coins are unslabbed. Here are my positive observations.

 

I like the small ANACS holders, they don't overwhelm the coin and especially in IHC's I can pick them up cheaper, than in NGC or PCGS slabs.

 

PCGS's guarantee for copper has pushed me in that direction, however if I find a nice coin in NGC or ANACS, I still buy it. PCGS's board has attracted some top notch collectors,from whom I have gathered invaluable information.

 

I can lay out my NGC coins and see that the grades are consistent. I use this procedure to grade all my slab coins from other companies.It's my way of assuring myself that the grade is what is should be. I really enjoy the registry at NGC, I can see the new coins added dailey.

 

mhooten already posted many of my same thoughts, so I won't duplicat them.

[EZ_E]

Why is there such a large price differential on the value of PCGS and NGC graded coins? For instance: the 1$ silver eagle and ms70 modern commen $5 gold.

[EVillageProwler]

Victor,

 

Sometimes, a pricing difference between similar products is based on the quality of the product. Other times, it is based on historical reasons or simple marketing.

 

Kellog's raisin bran costs more than Post's, but is one really better?

 

EVP

 

[keithdagen]

Series I have experience with:

 

Classic Type coins --

 

NGC seems a little soft on borderline gold. I've seen a couple of MS-61 pieces that really had some light rub to the piece. PCGS seems to slab a lot of ugly gold though, with many of their examples having unsightly carbon or copper spotting.

 

On non-gold issues, both services seem to be very consistent with their grading, although lately, I have had better success with NGC at finding coins with eye appeal. Most of the NGC copper I have seen has been problem-free and nicely colored, where the PCGS early copper seems to be plagues with spots or discoloration.

 

Modern Type coins --

 

PCGS grades stricter overall than NGC, but is less consistent. I have had two Jefferson nickels, one in a 66FS holder and one in a 67FS holder. The 66FS had fewer marks and better appeal. Look for that consistency at NGC to make gains in the market as PCGS buyers get tired of buying overgraded or undergraded merchandise.

 

Modern Commemorative coins --

 

PCGS is stricter on the definition of what constitutes a 70, but has fluctuated with that standard. I have not had the opportunity to examine NGC-70's, but the NGC-69 pieces I have seen were comparable in quality to the PCGS-69's.

[IrishMike]

victoreasly, one word, REGISTRY

[Fairlaneman]

Thousands and Thousands of different people buy PCGS and NGC coins and they are not all in the Registries. Maybe the man does not know why there is such a price difference. Heck, Tell him the truth about the Price differences.

 

Here is a hint. "Appearence Review" for older slabbed NGC Coins. Has NGC recovered Yet from thier previous mistakes ? People have long memories sometimes and trust must be gained back. Slowly it appears to be happening but slowly.

 

Ken

[IrishMike]

Ken reread his question he is talking about recently minted coins, aka moderns, the big prices are being paid by the registry guys. Where have YOU been, its in about every numismatic publication that has been printed this year. Quotes like, Big prices beind paid for Moderns, by Registy participants.

 

Do you think I just make this stuff up?

[jtryka]

Well, I have only dealt with ICG and PCGS directly, and IGC has great customer service.

 

As far as my areas of expertise, I collect a lot of double eagles, and no service really stands out. I have seen over and undergraded (my opinion) coins in every holder. ANACS seems to be the most conservative in the MS-60 to MS-63 range. I view PCGS and NGC as quite comparable and fair graders. ICG used to be more loose on Saints and Libs, but in my recent experience, they have tightened up quite a bit, but still viewed by the market as a second-tier grading service. Overall on all the services, you should trust your own judgement on the coin, not what the holder says.

[Fairlaneman]

Mike I believe the perception of NGC that has been viewed by many, whether it is true or not now, also pertains to the Modern Coins.

 

When it comes to the Modern Coins I may just be Dead wrong. They are for sure something I know Zip,Nada,Zilch or any other adjective you want to use about. I stand corrected if out of line.

 

Ken

[JustMakesCents]

I like ACG coins because ... um ... give me a minute ...

[EVillageProwler]

JMC,

 

You can like ACG because they serve as a warning to the entire industry just how bad things can get...

 

You see, if we try hard enough, we can even find something nice to say about ACG!

 

 

EVP

 

[shirohniichan]

ANACS:

I like them because they slab "problem" coins and attribute varieties. I haven't sent any coins in to be slabbed, but I like the fact that their inserts influence sellers to list all the information (thus, I can find variety information in a price list that usually wouldn't be included). Since they certify problem coins, I have more peace of mind when buying impaired rare coins that they aren't counterfeits.

 

ICCS:

They are both conservative and consistent in the grading of Canadian coins.

[keithdagen]

Ken,

 

NGC is more consistent with moderns, but PCGS is tighter. I would prefer consistency to tight, because I want to know that what I send in will come back without wondering what the service was thinking.

 

Braddick sent me a Kennedy half that I graded out as MS-65+, 66-, depending on the grader's mood. He agreed in the assessment, and for grins, I posted pics on PCGS's website, cmplete with poll. The overwhelming majority of Kennedy guys graded the piece MS-66. PCGS had graded it MS-63 for no apparant reason.

[Oldtrader3]

I am finding that recent PCGS slabs of gold coins are undergraded, for the most part, about one grade low. I like NGC's gold grading. They are more consistant and generally grade gold coins accurately. Someone else said that MS61 was the catchall for nice sliders.

 

PCGS (as you have noticed) grades more ugly gold coins. I have 3 PCGS Eagles now that have to go to NCS to be cleaned up. I think that all of those coins are undergraded, but they are dirty and it is hard to tell. Two of these coins are CC-Eagles that stand to gain if they were cleaned up a little.

[Fairlaneman]

Keith:

 

I remember that Thread. Also if the memory serves me correctly I was one of the Few that graded the coin 63. Hmmm....what do I know though, I just collect numbers.

 

Anyway as you stated consistency is of the upmost importance. Too bad the Services cannot get that point down correctly. Time will tell I suppose, both Here (NGC) and at PCGS.

 

To tell the truth a couple of years back I looked at alot of ANACS coins and it seemed they were real consistent to me.

 

Ken

[EZ_E]

E-Ville,

I think that I agree with your view that people are drawn into the hype of a particular grading service. Like a Harley will bring the big bucks basically just for the prestige of owning a Harley-Davidson. One would think that there would be a consistency among professional coin graders. Apparently, as I've been reading, there are no concrete grading standards in the higher ms grades which leaves too much subjectivity! I think that a PCGS 1996 SE in ms 69 is c. $400 while NGC comes in at only c. $40-$50. This seems quite extreme to me.

I used to seriously collect coins as a kid but in 1981 I sold most of them to buy my first car. The few that remained disappeared while I was in the Navy. Of course, back then there was less emphasis placed on top grades. Basically, uncirculated was uncirculated. Gem and select BU was more generic terminology. Now, 20 years later, I'm getting back into coin collecting and am having to learn all over again. Do you think that numismatics is going through a fad right now or will high ms grades going to continue to demand a huge premium? I just bought an ms67 buffalo nickle. It cost over $200 more than the same year in ms65. Just look at the Morgans. One ms grade can demand many, many thousands of dollars more.

I've always loved coin collecting. The beauty and history is reward enough but I would hate to pay high dollar for a high grade coin just to see the value drop after the passing of some fad.

I recently paid $70 dollars for a ms70 Yellowstone commen dollar (or is that Jellystone?) graded by Accugrade. I can see no hairlines, etc but would it crossgade to NGC for example? One thing that sux is that it has an eyelash encapsulated in the slab. Will the oil from the hair degrade the coin overtime? I also have proof Buffalo dollar with original mint packaging with a human hair inside of the plastic holder. What's up with that?

Anyway, I'm beginning to ramble. Thanks for the input.

[EVillageProwler]

Do you think that numismatics is going through a fad right now or will high ms grades going to continue to demand a huge premium?

 

Tough to say with great precision, but I think that this is a fad with some series and sustainable with some others.

 

You really need to look at each specific coin. You mentioned Buffalo nickels. Late date Buffs are very common in high grade. Even many early dates are not really scarce in gem. When prices go up, is it sustainable? It depends on what's driving the price increase. I doubt there's rolls and bags of high grade Buffs waiting to be discovered.

 

You also mentioned Morgans. In high grade, they are lovely coins. Big, bright cartwheels... They attract a lot of collectors, who pursue them at the 63-65 level initially, then graduate to getting even finer ones! But, they are also plentiful as heck. Even the better dates in better grades are very common compared to, say, Ikes.

 

For Buffs and Morgans, I doubt they'd sustain another price increase -- even in spite of the online registry.

 

The series that have been with us for a while now have mostly leveled off in terms of how much we can manipulate them. There are, of course, exceptions...

 

The newer series have some genuine rarities, and in high grade I feel they have no where to go but up. But, I'm talking about regular circ strike clad Ikes, Kennedys and Washingtons in MS67. Most of them are poorly struck. Finding superb gems are very tough. People don't care as much because they are current and clad. Having precious metal and being more like an antique seem sexier...

 

Those special mint products, like modern commems and ASEs, generally should not sustain a price increase.

 

EVP

 

[Hoot]

Victor - As for your Yellowstone commem in the ACG holder with a hair, I would definitely crack it out, blow the hair off, inspect the surfaces carefully, and send it to NGC for grading. If the coin has already sustained some surface damage, then you could route it through NCS and have them send it to NGC. The hair will do damage over time. Hairs can maintain a static charge and can cause reactive damage to the surface of the coin over time. Same is true for dust particles and other crud. (BTW, I've found more of such stuff in PCGS holders than any other service, bar none).

 

As for your buffalo dollar, just open the Mint holder carefully and gently blow the hair away. Re-seal, or also send to be graded.

 

"I just bought an ms67 buffalo nickel. It cost over $200 more than the same year in ms65."

 

Just wait until you get into some of the tough years!

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

Thanks for all of the feedback. I definitely suspected that a hair could cause some long term effects. Pretty unprofessional of Accugrade to let a graded coin go with a hair in the slab. I'd hate to crack it since it's graded in ms 70. If doesn't crossgrade evenly then NGC, etc. aren't suppose to tamper with it either.

I recently bought a ms 66 Morgan and a ms 67PL Morgan. The 66 was gorgeous with lots of lustre. On the other hand, the 67 PL was very unattractive to me. It was full of hairlines on both sides. I sent it back. Point is: grade doesn't hold water compared to eye-appeal.

As mentioned, I'm just getting back into the field and have been diversifying my buys. I feel that for now, I'm being drawn to early, pre-Morgan silver dollars (especially the higher grades). Watch it, EVP, you might have some competition.

 

[EVillageProwler]

Victor,

 

I an unconcerned about the competition, and I welcome the camaraderie.

 

 

Feel free to contact me with questions...

 

EVP

 

[EZ_E]

John McCaslin had an interesting blurb in his INSIDE THE BELTWAY column in

the Washington Times today. He noted the contest taking place in which

people in the DC area are making suggestions of what would be the most

appropriate design for the "tails" side of their quarter. Elliot Barber of

Bedford, Massachusetts had the best "design" idea. Instead of putting a

picture of the White House, or Congress, or any of the major landmarks for

which the nation's capital is famous, Barber suggested a simple statement

instead. His inscription would read: "If found, please return to the IRS."

 

 

 

Jon Christian Ryter

Author of:

THE BAFFLED CHRISTIAN'S HANDBOOK

PRINCE ALBERT: PROPHET OF UTOPIA

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO AMERICA?

COMING SOON: DESTINY DENIED

website: www.jonchristianryter.com

old website: http://hometown.aol.com/baffauthor/jonchristianryter.html

 

 

 

[EZ_E]

I went ahead and cracked open the accugrade ms 70 Yellowstone $1 with the hair. Sure enough, there is a permanent discoloration where it was.

[EZ_E]

I went ahead and cracked open the accugrade ms 70 $1 Yellowstone with the hair. Sure enough, it had a permanent discoloration.

[Hoot]

Hi Victor - Good thing about you cracking that coin is that I doubt that the discoloration is permanent. Check out NCS at http://www.ncscoin.com/ and contact them about sending the coin in. If you are an ANA member or a member fo the NGC Collector's Society, then you have the ability to submit coins directly to NCS, else you may have to go through a dealer. I have used NCS many times now to remove crud, PVC, or spotting that can occur on coins from charged particles (such as dust/hair) and have had excellent success. They will route the coin through NGC using the appropriate tier of grading and you'll get your coin back, problem remediated and graded by NGC.

 

Hoot

[Oldtrader3]

Victor: Accugrade is widely known for their unprofessional (and unethical) conduct. I hope that your coin crosses. Most Accugrade slabbed coins will not cross to another service in the same grade. So, be mentally prepared to lose a grade or so, on the crossing.

 

Also, as you have noticed, human hair does cause damage. The amino acids on the surface of the hair react with the silver molecules and cause corrosion. There may also be some galvanic corrosion as someone else suggested.

[EZ_E]

Victor,

 

I an unconcerned about the competition, and I welcome the camaraderie.

 

 

 

Feel free to contact me with questions...

 

EVP

 

Thanks for the warm welcome. I was reading the link about trolls. New terminology for me. You certainly put him down a couple of notches. Good for you! This site should be about comraderie, not disention.

How do you change the "title" under your login name? i.e. your grey poupon statement. Not that I have anything better to put but I'm curious and couldn't do it from my home page.

Thanks, Victor

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Your title is set by NGC and can't be changed by you.

 

I tried to get them to change EVP's to add "...on your dog.." but no success!