Pricing: 1864 Bronze Indian 1c NGC PF66 BN

[gmarguli]

To what extent do "industry standards" and "market acceptability" determine what you will and will not do to a coin? For example, if the TPGs started slabbing professionally whizzed or tooled coins, would you make a coin "better" using these methods if you could sell it for more money?

 

If the TPG started to slab whizzed and tooled coins, then I'd have no problem dealing them. However, I wouldn't do any whizzing or tooling as I do not have the knowledge or tools, nor do I consider it making them "better". I also find the look of those type coins awful.

[WinstonWare]

However, I wouldn't do any whizzing as I do not have the tool

[MrEureka-migration]

The coin you bought is ugly.

 

The $2700 Heritage coin is spectacular for the grade.

 

The prices realized should not be surprising.

 

Good luck turning your ugly duckling into a swan. Seems like a long shot.

[MrEureka-migration]

IGWT asks an interesting but ridiculous question. I'll ask one of my own:

 

To what extent do "legal standards" and "social mores" determine what you will and will not do to a woman? For example, if rape was socially acceptable and completely legal, would you become a rapist?

 

The point is that sometimes you just have to do what you think is right, regardless of what "works".

 

Then again, if money is involved...

[bsshog40]

I think this should fall under the category of "Personal Acceptibility".

[gmarguli]

IGWT asks an interesting but ridiculous question. I'll ask one of my own:

 

To what extent do "legal standards" and "social mores" determine what you will and will not do to a woman? For example, if rape was socially acceptable and completely legal, would you become a rapist?

 

The point is that sometimes you just have to do what you think is right, regardless of what "works".

 

Then again, if money is involved...

 

Well, I'm glad you admit that your question is ridiculous. Equating what someone might do to a human compared to an inanimate object really has no comparisons. You own a coin 100% and are free to do with it as you see fit. You do not own any part of a women (Islamic countries excluded).

 

Having said that, I believe that "legal standards" and "social mores" greatly shape mine and everyone's actions. Would I or you or anybody feel a certain (currently objectionable) action is OK if the law and social mores were on our side and that is what we knew? In honesty, yes. Of course we would! If those actions were ingrained in us and considered OK socially, then I suspect I, you, and most everybody would accept those actions. To say otherwise would be a lie.

 

Andy, would you be willing to own a slave today? Probably not. How about 150 years ago? Probably yes. What's the difference? Perhaps "legal standards" and "social mores"?

[tmot99-migration]

In 100% honesty, I will... as soon as you or someone else lets me know what chemical will work as well as MS70 in striping surfaces without killing the luster. In my experience, nothing else comes close. MS70 is wonderful. I use it on not just copper, but silver and gold. It works great to remove dark toning without killing the surfaces.

 

I can think of a number of chemicals that will remove dirt and grime, not change the color in any fashion, and still be totally market acceptable with no evidence of anything even happening. MS70 isn't on my list.

[gmarguli]

In 100% honesty, I will... as soon as you or someone else lets me know what chemical will work as well as MS70 in striping surfaces without killing the luster. In my experience, nothing else comes close. MS70 is wonderful. I use it on not just copper, but silver and gold. It works great to remove dark toning without killing the surfaces.

 

I can think of a number of chemicals that will remove dirt and grime, not change the color in any fashion, and still be totally market acceptable with no evidence of anything even happening. MS70 isn't on my list.

 

Then perhaps you should post your list rather than keep it to yourself.

[MarkFeld]

In 100% honesty, I will... as soon as you or someone else lets me know what chemical will work as well as MS70 in striping surfaces without killing the luster. In my experience, nothing else comes close. MS70 is wonderful. I use it on not just copper, but silver and gold. It works great to remove dark toning without killing the surfaces.

 

I can think of a number of chemicals that will remove dirt and grime, not change the color in any fashion, and still be totally market acceptable with no evidence of anything even happening. MS70 isn't on my list.

 

Then perhaps you should post your list rather than keep it to yourself.

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

[texasrichard]

Greg,

 

Would you mind sharing how you address questions from potential buyers when selling a coin where you have done as stated above.

 

If the potential buyer asks you directly if the coin is original skin? or if you cracked and resubmitted? or if you know of anyone yourself included who has done anything to change or improve the look of the coin?

 

Thanks,

Richard

[tmot99-migration]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

[MarkFeld]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

Thank you. I had heard the same about the use of those two products together.

 

Greg, the ball is in your court now.

[gmarguli]

If the potential buyer asks you directly if the coin is original skin?

 

I would tell them it is not. I would also tell them to assume that every collectible coin older than 40 years has probably had something done to it - slabbed or raw.

 

 

or if you cracked and resubmitted?

 

I may answer that, but probably tell them it doesn't matter and they either like the coin and agree with the grade or they don't. The grading services are not gods no matter what some people think. All coins of value will end up in a TPG coffin at some point.

 

 

or if you know of anyone yourself included who has done anything to change or improve the look of the coin?

 

I'd tell them of course someone has. This is a business. Are they naive enough to think that there aren't business people that will work product (coins) to maximize their value.

[gmarguli]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

 

Acetone will not remove dirt and grim. It's great for removing oils and PVC, but it will not usually remove oxidation which is what you need to do.

 

Blue Ribbon is a coin conditioner and preservative. At least that's what it's called. Basically it is put on surfaces to hide marks, cleanings, and other stuff. Oh, I know people will say it is used to preserve, but honestly it's used by a lot of people to get clearly cleaned copper into TPG slabs. It does not work even slightly as well as MS70. Not even close.

[gmarguli]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

Thank you. I had heard the same about the use of those two products together.

 

Greg, the ball is in your court now.

 

Mark, which one looks better to you?

 

[tmot99-migration]

Acetone will not remove dirt and grim. It's great for removing oils and PVC, but it will not usually remove oxidation which is what you need to do.

 

Blue Ribbon is a coin conditioner and preservative. At least that's what it's called. Basically it is put on surfaces to hide marks, cleanings, and other stuff. Oh, I know people will say it is used to preserve, but honestly it's used by a lot of people to get clearly cleaned copper into TPG slabs. It does not work even slightly as well as MS70. Not even close.

 

I guess you'll need to tell me how acetone removes the dirt and grime on my coins then. And no, it won't remove oxidation. You may as well take a brillo pad to a coin if that's what you are trying to accomplish.

 

As far as Blue Ribbon, yes, some people will leave it on the coin which is supposed to help protect the coin. I personally don't want any chemical sitting on my coin and therefore rinse it off. However, Blue Ribbon is also a solvent which does, in fact, remove dirt and grime and doesn't affect the color or surface of the coin.

 

MS70 changes the color of copper.

 

I know you asked Mark, but I like coin #1 1,000,000 times better. Is that what MS70 does? Turn a coin blue? You'd have been better off taking a brillo pad to it.

[gmarguli]

I guess you'll need to tell me how acetone removes the dirt and grime on my coins then. And no, it won't remove oxidation. You may as well take a brillo pad to a coin if that's what you are trying to accomplish.

 

It just removes the oils. Your coin may appear lighter and less dirty due to the dirt trapped in the oils.

 

You may think a Brillo pad is the best way to remove oxidation, but I prefer non-damaging ways.

[tmot99-migration]

You may think a Brillo pad is the best way to remove oxidation, but I prefer non-damaging ways.

 

Maybe sometime you'll try a non-damaging way.

[gmarguli]

You may think a Brillo pad is the best way to remove oxidation, but I prefer non-damaging ways.

 

Maybe sometime you'll try a non-damaging way.

 

I'll forgive you for this weak attepmt at knowledge. I know you're a PCGS forum member and this would probably win you a POTD™ Award over there, but here it gets you a

[zrlevin]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

Thank you. I had heard the same about the use of those two products together.

 

Greg, the ball is in your court now.

 

Mark, which one looks better to you?

 

 

#1, hands down.

[MAULEMALL]

You may think a Brillo pad is the best way to remove oxidation, but I prefer non-damaging ways.

 

Maybe sometime you'll try a non-damaging way.

 

I'll forgive you for this weak attepmt at knowledge. I know you're a PCGS forum member and this would probably win you a POTD™ Award over there, but here it gets you a

[gmarguli]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

Thank you. I had heard the same about the use of those two products together.

 

Greg, the ball is in your court now.

 

Mark, which one looks better to you?

 

 

#1, hands down.

 

You don't think the blue color is prettier than dull brown?

[tmot99-migration]

You may think a Brillo pad is the best way to remove oxidation, but I prefer non-damaging ways.

 

Maybe sometime you'll try a non-damaging way.

 

I'll forgive you for this weak attepmt at knowledge. I know you're a PCGS forum member and this would probably win you a POTD™ Award over there, but here it gets you a

 

Guess I hit a sore spot. Sorry about that.

[MarkFeld]

I'm all for a list of those substances being posted, if for no other reason, than to encourage Greg (and perhaps others) to stop using MS70.

 

Well, on copper, I've been very successful using Blue Ribbon and acetone. Blue Ribbon has shown to be better at removing schmutz on copper than straight acetone. However, I don't like the oil that Blue Ribbon leaves so I give it a rinse in acetone. No color change. No alteration other than to remove dirt and grime. Matte surfaces stay matte and proof surfaces stay proof-like. I may even sometimes give a final alcohol rinse if I'm concerned with any remaining acetone residue.

Thank you. I had heard the same about the use of those two products together.

 

Greg, the ball is in your court now.

Mark, which one looks better to you?

 

Greg, the first one looks much better to me.

[gmarguli]

Greg, the first one looks much better to me.

 

Assuming it (#2) gets in a PCGS slab, would you be willing to sell it?

[zrlevin]

You don't think the blue color is prettier than dull brown?

 

Nope. Dull brown and grey is my specialty. Take a gander at any of my sets in my signature line (admittedly, they are a bit out of date ). All of the copper is brown, and the silver is grey.

 

While I agree that this is your coin and you can do whatever you want with it, I think that your actions are detrimental to the hobby. You destroyed a wonderful coin of which there were only 1500 made.

[gmarguli]

You don't think the blue color is prettier than dull brown?

 

Nope. Dull brown and grey is my specialty. Take a gander at any of my sets in my signature line (admittedly, they are a bit out of date ). All of the copper is brown, and the silver is grey.

 

While I agree that this is your coin and you can do whatever you want with it, I think that your actions are detrimental to the hobby. You destroyed a wonderful coin of which there were only 1500 made.

 

150, not 1500.

[tmot99-migration]

You don't think the blue color is prettier than dull brown?

 

Nope. Dull brown and grey is my specialty. Take a gander at any of my sets in my signature line (admittedly, they are a bit out of date ). All of the copper is brown, and the silver is grey.

 

While I agree that this is your coin and you can do whatever you want with it, I think that your actions are detrimental to the hobby. You destroyed a wonderful coin of which there were only 1500 made.

 

150, not 1500.

 

That makes destroying it much more acceptable.

[zrlevin]

You don't think the blue color is prettier than dull brown?

 

Nope. Dull brown and grey is my specialty. Take a gander at any of my sets in my signature line (admittedly, they are a bit out of date ). All of the copper is brown, and the silver is grey.

 

While I agree that this is your coin and you can do whatever you want with it, I think that your actions are detrimental to the hobby. You destroyed a wonderful coin of which there were only 1500 made.

 

150, not 1500.

 

That's all you've got to say for yourself? Correcting my mintage numbers?

[Zoins]

Greg, the first one looks much better to me.

Assuming it (#2) gets in a PCGS slab, would you be willing to sell it?

Will we get to see a photo of #2 in a PCGS slab in the future?