If a client "sees" an imaginary problem on a coin, should the dealer tell him?

[MarkFeld]

Hypothetically, a client looks at a coin through the mail and returns it to the dealer because he "sees" a defect that bothers him. Upon receipt of the coin, dealer examines the "problem" area and realizes that client had apparently mistaken clash marks, die polish or some other as-struck characteristic for a mint-made defect.

 

Should the dealer bother to contact the client and try to explain it to him/her? Doing so by email or over the phone will be much more difficult than in person, but since the transaction was conducted through the mail, that's the only way it can be done. And, there's always the chance that the client will think he's getting a story from the dealer and/or be embarrassed. On the other hand, it could be a potential valuable learning experience for the client.

 

So, what should the dealer do?

[supertooth]

Mark--- If the dealer had the time, then, in the name of education, I would probably take the time and write a short note. There is no telling if the person would appreciate the dealer's time---or explanation. However, at some time in the future, the potential buyer might remember the kindness.

 

I see no harm in trying to help to educate. You can then move on with a 'totally' clear conscience. Bob [supertooth]

[TomB]

In a real-time exchange I would state my opinion about the coin and its "problem" to the collector. I would also do this via email or phone if I believed I knew the collector well enough or if the collector appeared to want to have a dialogue regarding the coin and/or "problem". However, if I did not know the collector well at all, or if it appeared that the matter was finished with no other conversation needed, then I would let it slide.

[rbrown4]

In my opinion, in the numismatic field as with any other, dealers should have the responsibility to correctly grade and price the items they offer for sale. The general public, I believe, is many times open game for some dealers. At the same time I believe a buyer is responsible as well for verifying to the best of his/her ability the value of a coin they are buying whether that is through a specialist knowledgeable for that item or otherwise. There is always going to be the business aspect of the deal whereas hopefully both sides are satisfied with the outcome.

 

In the scenario above, to preserve integrity and honesty, even if the attempt falls on deaf ears, the dealer should communicate in the best way he/she can to explain his reasoning, opinion of the suspected defect.

 

Rey

[Zoins]

If I was buying an expensive coin from a reputable dealer and I made a mistake in diagnosing a coin, I would prefer the dealer take the effort to educate me. That's because I like to view dealers as consultants that extend my knowledge but I'm not sure everyone views dealers the same way. I still might not buy the coin but I would appreciate the knowledge and it would increase my chances of buying from that dealer in the future.

 

Of course, I would research the issue independently and if it turned out to be a scam I'd probably lose faith in that dealer.

[James_OldeTowne]

Because I deal in older coins, I get this issue frequently. I ALWAYS use it as an educational opportunity, and do so without being pushy. So my answer is, Yes, contact the client and explain it. Indeed, I keep copies of all such letters so that I can cut&paste&customize to fit the situation.

 

I can't tell you how many times this has come back to me in a good way, but it has been quite a few times.

[Hoot]

I'd also agree that contacting the buyer and providing them with a simple and friendly explanation is an appropriate thing to do. I'd do it with the initial caveat that there's no harm or foul in returning the coin and that it's good when a collector simply sticks to what they like.

 

As an aside, I believe that often buyers will invent problems with a coin or exaggerate a problem that was adequately described in order to make a return sound more urgent or necessary. That's an indication (to me) of buyer's remorse. However, with sight-unseen purchases, this will always be a downside risk.

 

Hoot

[DirtyGoldMan]

I agree with James, Bob, Tom, etc. that this situation could be an educational opportunity that may create goodwill between the dealer and the collector. Especially if this is a new customer, it may be wise for the dealer to inform the collector after the dealer receives the coin back that the "defect" was a die crack (or whatever). Then, he is less likely to think that that the dealer was pushy, trying to jam him with a subpar coin, etc.

 

I am just glad that the customer did not like it. Hypothetically, of course.

[IGWT]

Upon receipt of the coin, dealer examines the "problem" area and realizes that client had apparently mistaken clash marks, die polish or some other as-struck characteristic for a mint-made defect.

 

Is this a trick question, like the riddle that asks where to bury the survivors when a plane crashes on the boundary of two countries? Clash marks, die polish, and similar attributes are mint-made defects; and the client is not mistaken at all. Maybe the dealer needs an education.

[MarkFeld]

Upon receipt of the coin, dealer examines the "problem" area and realizes that client had apparently mistaken clash marks, die polish or some other as-struck characteristic for a mint-made defect.

 

Is this a trick question, like the riddle that asks where to bury the survivors when a plane crashes on the boundary of two countries? Clash marks, die polish, and similar attributes are mint-made defects; and the client is not mistaken at all. Maybe the dealer needs an education.

Thanks for the good catch - I meant to say "man-made defects" not "mint-made defects".

 

And thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. I believe that the dealer will be contacting the client.

[DirtyGoldMan]

And thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. I believe that the dealer will be contacting the client.

 

Make sure to tell him that another stooge, er, I mean, client has stepped up to buy the coin, and he cannot have it back.

[Dcoin]

I agree with all above, however I will add that in the note the dealer could 'offer' the coin one more time. After all this is a business deal and a gentle re-pitch might settle things.

[texasrichard]

"And thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. I believe that the dealer will be contacting the client."

 

Hypothetically Speaking

[MarkFeld]

"And thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. I believe that the dealer will be contacting the client."

 

Hypothetically Speaking

But of course!

[RGT]

And thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. I believe that the dealer will be contacting the client.

 

Make sure to tell him that another stooge, er, I mean, client has stepped up to buy the coin, and he cannot have it back.

 

Hopefully the new hypothetical buyer will post some hypothetical pictures to the board when he receives the hypothetical coin.

[rrantique]

And thanks to everyone for your thoughtful and helpful replies. I believe that the dealer will be contacting the client.

 

Make sure to tell him that another stooge, er, I mean, client has stepped up to buy the coin, and he cannot have it back.

 

Hopefully the new hypothetical buyer will post some hypothetical pictures to the board when he receives the hypothetical coin.

 

And remember sometimes in my case " ignorance is Bliss"

[MikeKing]

"Know your client"

 

I bought a coin from a well known dealer and sent it back because it was heavily hairlined. He absolutely insisted what I was looking at were die polish lines. Duhhhh. I photographed the hairlines and sent him the pics and he took the coin back.

 

It's all in the attitude of approach. You can approach it like a pig, or you can approach it with the utmost civility, which is rare in today's society.

[Oldtrader3]

I agree with informing the buyer of any error that he/she may have made in evaluating the coin. My experience though as a collector, not a dealer is that many buyers that send coins back want a "bargain".

 

I sold an 1853-O, NGC, MS61 gold dollar to a person once. He returned the coin as having "too many marks", despite a fair price, representative pictures and a good description. I think this guy wanted a MS63 example (of a scarce coin) for 61 money, plus I haven't seen a 53-O dollar this nice since. Too bad, so sad! I sold the coin later for more money.

[gmarguli]

I'd ignore it and make a mental note that next time the client asks about a coin with a similar "problem", I'd mention it to them before mailing it.

 

Odds are against you of it making a difference. The client didn't like the coin. He probably won't like a similar "problem" coin in the future.

[TJ'S Coins]

I would not mind knowing if my diagnosis was wrong. I still may not take the coin but at least I would have learned something more in the process.

[gmarguli]

The problem is that most dealers have little ethics and when they try to "teach" a collector, they're most likely trying to screw that collector.

 

Typical dealer: Those aren't marks from cleaning. They're die polish.

[michael]

i would say nothing

 

unfortunately you cant fix correct change convert anyone only yourself

 

in the end by doing the right thing will only lose you businesss respect and lost respect and the collector will take it the wrong way by sort of not believing you

 

such is human nature

 

 

 

now for example there are extremely rare exceptions if say you know the collector and you are friends and have had many dealings like this in the past where you helped the collector and he loved you for it and you knew him a long time and well the personalities just mix correctly and he has expressed an interest in learning and also you know that he will most definately apprecaite this based on your past dealings and he is truly your buddy then i would tell him

 

but as per the above this would be really rare one in 100+ people you do biz with

[MikeKing]

I've learned a lot from you criticizing my coins, Michael

but I do agree with you. Goes to what I feel about 'know your client'.

[TJ'S Coins]

The problem is that most dealers have little ethics and when they try to "teach" a collector, they're most likely trying to screw that collector.

 

Typical dealer: Those aren't marks from cleaning. They're die polish.

 

That's why I still might not buy the coin It might also teach me more about a particular dealer and his ethics or lack thereof.

[MikeKing]

too, a lot depends on who will decide to take the teacher role.

To assume a dealer knows more about the coin than the client is ridiculous, and to assume the client knows more about the coin is also ridiculous, unless you KNOW for a fact that one has better knowledge of a series than another.

 

Whoever has the desire as well as the ability to educate the other should have every reason to do so, if it's done in a way that will be successful in bringing out the final end, which is beneficial education.

 

What is beneficial education? I think it should be clear within the content of those two words put together. I will tell you what is not beneficial education;

 

getting snotty about something

acting like you know better

acting like you know better when you do not

not listening to what this 'imaginary' thing is that the client is concerned about

not determining correctly how seriously you understand this 'imaginary' thing

a lack of willingness to educate rather than berate

an understanding that even you don't know everything about coins, nevermind people and how subjective the interpretation of what they are seeing.

 

Getting an understanding of what they are seeing is absolutely essential for understanding the validity of their claim and the worthiness of 'corrective' education done with the clients best interest in mind.

 

Believe me, I know people because of my profession, and on a daily basis, my challenge was to teach each and every individual who came into my office, but only on the pretense, that it was the patient, who could be the best teacher.

 

If you think that this doesn't apply to anything else in life, like the above dealer/buyer relationship, then you're barking up the wrong tree of misunderstanding.

 

[IGWT]

Perhaps you should include a description of the as-made defects to educate potential buyers when you relist the coin.

[MarkFeld]

Perhaps you should include a description of the as-made defects to educate potential buyers when you relist the coin.

Good advice. With respect to the hypothetical coin in question, I had described

one of the mint-made areas affected, but I see that I neglected to mention another one.

[TJ'S Coins]

Mark - What's the balance between "full disclosure" on a coin, that is identifying things that you notice as a dealer and painting your coins in such a negative light that it would hinder their sale and saying enough to be truthful without overloading on details that may or may not mean anything to a collector?

 

I appreciate a dealer who points out an obvious "problem" with a coin but even more so, one who can intelligently offer his opinion on questions that I may have regarding a particular coin. When a deal is transacted in person this is much easier to do.

 

When it comes to Internet, telephone or through the mail sales, I like to know if the coin has any problems up front such as hairlines, harsh cleaning, obvious AT, nicks, dings, scratches, etc.

[MarkFeld]

Mark - What's the balance between "full disclosure" on a coin, that is identifying things that you notice as a dealer and painting your coins in such a negative light that it would hinder their sale and saying enough to be truthful without overloading on details that may or may not mean anything to a collector?

 

I appreciate a dealer who points out an obvious "problem" with a coin but even more so, one who can intelligently offer his opinion on questions that I may have regarding a particular coin. When a deal is transacted in person this is much easier to do.

 

When it comes to Internet, telephone or through the mail sales, I like to know if the coin has any problems up front such as hairlines, harsh cleaning, obvious AT, nicks, dings, scratches, etc.

Your question and comments are well put. The proper balance for disclosure is a very important issue and one which arises frequently - or at least it should, if the dealer cares about representing his/her coins fairly and accurately.

 

I can't speak for others, but generally, I try to disclose how my coins differ from their images, whether that requires positive or negative comments. For example, below is the description of a coin currently on my website. I like it a lot, but mentioned its worst defect, in particular, as it wasn't apparent in my image. I also noted mint-made flaws, which I didn't want potential buyers to confuse with man-made defects.

 

I attempt to place myself in the position of a buyer viewing web site images, trying to determine what a coin really looks like. And, I encourage my clients to ask questions, as well as to view coins of interest, in hand, before sending payment.

 

"NEW* 1875-S Twenty Cent Piece PCGS MS64 $1650

It's a shame that more business strike Twenty Cent Pieces don't look like this one. Here is an exquisitely original example featuring delicate silver, gold and gray patina over fresh looking and highly lustrous surfaces. There are some light scratches in the upper left obverse field which are well concealed, even by the gentle toning and they might be the only reason the coin didn't receive another grade point and a much higher price tag. Struck from clashed dies, with the area at the upper left of the reverse not being man-made flaws as it might appear. Far more impressive looking in person than in the images."

[TJ'S Coins]

I appreciate your comments Mark, especially your point of view as a buyer looking at an image and then informing people on how the image differs from the coin in hand. A coin may have a certain appeal in hand that is impossible to capture via an image. Likewise an image may look more desirable than a coin in hand. Here is where the description of the dealer can be most helpful.

 

The description of the twenty cent piece is excellent. It highlights the positive features of the coin, its appeal, originality, toning and patina in good terms. It also mentions something that is less than positive but offers an explanation that it is from clashed dies and not man-made scratches. You also encourage the potential buyer that you really have to see this coin in hand to appreciate all that it offers. Honesty of this type makes me very comfortable working with a dealer.

 

A caveat. I may examine the coin in hand and determine for myself that the scratches are not from clashed dies as you say. I would then have to decide if this coin was for me or not. If not, I would return it without making an issue out of the questionable area but simply say that it is not for my collection at this time or that I'm just not comfortable with the "problem" area. The last thing that I want to do is imply a dealer is a liar or deceptive after a description like the one that you gave. It is possible to disagree with someone without calling their character into question. My opinion may be dead wrong and your opinion as a dealer who has seen far more examples be spot on target. It is not worth it for me to argue the point. I would consider the evidence, pro and con, and continue to learn.

 

A final caveat. The coin industry is no different than any other. There are many outstanding people who are dealers and collectors who make the hobby interesting, informative and fun. These boards represent this well. A few bad apples appear but they reveal themselves for who they are over time. Honesty allows me to sleep better at night and to treat people how I would like to be treated.