1975 AND 1976 Proof Sets Question -

[jgrinz]

IS there such a thing as a PROOF coin with a 1975 date for the Quarter the Half and the Dollar.

 

In the PROOF sets BOTH years come with the Bi Centtenial coinage in them.

 

I had a conversation with NGC because of my Multi Holders and What Coins to put in them and had to go singles for these as I do not know if they exist or not ANYONE

[bsshog40]

There are no 1975 dates for these coins. In 75' just the penny, nickel, and dime!!

[Dwaine]

I seem to remember a thread somewhere that talked about looking at the Dollar on the Ike and you can tell the difference in the years. However both years carry the same date of 1776-1976.

[jgrinz]

The Ikes ended up type 1 and type 2 perhaps that is part of the set difference ??

[MunkyMan95]

I think it has something to do with the R in LIBERTY. If I saw two coins I could tell the difference in years, but I don't know how exactly to explain it...

[rbrown4]

I think the following is correct

 

The dual date 1776-1976 appeared on all dollars in 1975 and 1976. At some point either in 1975 or 1976 the lettering on the reverse was modified to what was considered a "more attractive" design. Thus there ended up two varieties. Variety one has very bold lettering on the reverse and a low relief design. Variety two had a more sharp design and less bold, or more delicate lettering on the reverse.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Rey

[cladking]

I think the following is correct

 

The dual date 1776-1976 appeared on all dollars in 1975 and 1976. At some point either in 1975 or 1976 the lettering on the reverse was modified to what was considered a "more attractive" design. Thus there ended up two varieties. Variety one has very bold lettering on the reverse and a low relief design. Variety two had a more sharp design and less bold, or more delicate lettering on the reverse.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Rey

 

 

This is essentially correct and did apply to the proofs as well as the uncs. There are differences on the obverse as well; the most obvious being a deepening and lenghtening of the crease in Ikes neck that pointed at the 1776 date.

 

There are several different varieties for these coins known and two that are always left off the guides are the unique 1976-P Proof Ike and the tough 40% unc which was made on high speed presses.

[rbrown4]

Here are examples of the 1975 Proof $1, 1976 Proof $1 (both one of six coins) and the 3 Coin Bicentennial m40 % Silver Proof $1 (1 of 3 coins). I will send pictures of the uncirculated reverses in another post.

 

1975 - Wide Reverse Letters

1976 - Smaller Reverse Letters

40 % Silver Set - Wide Reverse letters

 

 

 

[DC Dawg]

I think it has something to do with the R in LIBERTY. If I saw two coins I could tell the difference in years, but I don't know how exactly to explain it...

The R's are only one way to tell.

 

For the 1976 Type 1 coin, the reverse lettering is thicker and the tail on the R is straighter. The letters seem more blocky. These dies were used in 1975 for all business strikes.

 

The Commission on Fine Arts did not like the coin, so they requested a change in the dies used to make the letters thinner and add "decorations" to the letters (called serifs) which changed the tail on the R's to be more "curly."

 

The change effected both the MS and PF coins.

 

BTW: The images were "borrowed" from Wayne Herndon's guide on eBay here.

 

To return to the original question, the only coins with a 1975 date are the cent, nickel, and dime. The quarter and half dollar coins were dual dated both years (1776-1976) as were the Eisenhower Dollars. But the Type 1 dies were used in 1975, the Type 2 dies in 1976.

 

I hope that helps!

 

Scott

[rbrown4]

Just an FYI, here are pictures of the reverse for the 1975 unc. mint sets, 1976 und. mint sets (six coins each) and the 40% unc. mint set.( 3 coins)

 

 

1975 - Wide Letters

 

1976 - Less Wide Letters

 

40% Silver Mint - Wide Letters

[Conder101]

Most of the dollars struck in 1975 are type I and ALL of the dollars struck in 1976 were type II. Only a small number of the dollars struck in 1975 were type II and there is no way to tell which year any particular type II was struck in. ALL of the 40% silver dollars both Unc and proof were struck in 1975 and are type I.

 

What I use for identifing the two types is the last S in STATES. Look at the tail of the S. If it only comes up to the top of the bottom bar of the E it is type II. On type I it extends almost up to the middle if the E. (look at the examples pictured in this thread.) Once you learn to spot that S it is an across the ROOMS length variety.

 

As mentioned there are no 1975 datd quarters, halves, and dollars. The reason for that was because it was believed that the populacemight hoard the new Bicentennial coins and a coin shortage could result. So legislation was passed that allowed the mint to begin issuing the Bicentennial coins in mid-1975. this would permit and extra six months of production. But it introduced another problem. It meant that there would only be six months production of 1975 dated quarters, halves and dollars. That could result in a modern scarcity and hoarding of those coins. So the same legislation that gave us the early Bicentennial coinage also put in place a date freeze on the 1974 coins allowing them to be struck through mid-1975.

 

Of course this meant there were no 1975 dated coins for the proof sets and mint sets. So it was decided that since the Bicentennials could be issued early they would include them in the sets.

[cladking]

Most of the dollars struck in 1975 are type I and ALL of the dollars struck in 1976 were type II. Only a small number of the dollars struck in 1975 were type II and there is no way to tell which year any particular type II was struck in. ALL of the 40% silver dollars both Unc and proof were struck in 1975 and are type I.

 

What I use for identifing the two types is the last S in STATES. Look at the tail of the S. If it only comes up to the top of the bottom bar of the E it is type II. On type I it extends almost up to the middle if the E. (look at the examples pictured in this thread.) Once you learn to spot that S it is an across the ROOMS length variety.

 

As mentioned there are no 1975 datd quarters, halves, and dollars. The reason for that was because it was believed that the populacemight hoard the new Bicentennial coins and a coin shortage could result. So legislation was passed that allowed the mint to begin issuing the Bicentennial coins in mid-1975. this would permit and extra six months of production. But it introduced another problem. It meant that there would only be six months production of 1975 dated quarters, halves and dollars. That could result in a modern scarcity and hoarding of those coins. So the same legislation that gave us the early Bicentennial coinage also put in place a date freeze on the 1974 coins allowing them to be struck through mid-1975.

 

Of course this meant there were no 1975 dated coins for the proof sets and mint sets. So it was decided that since the Bicentennials could be issued early they would include them in the sets.

 

 

It's interesting to note that the bicentennial coins were in great demand even while the warehouses were still full of the 1974 coins. This caused much of the mintage of the '74 issues to get "passed up" by the later coins. The effect was especially noticeable with the '74-P quarter which was still being released in 1980.

[DC Dawg]

As mentioned there are no 1975 datd quarters, halves, and dollars. The reason for that was because it was believed that the populacemight hoard the new Bicentennial coins and a coin shortage could result. So legislation was passed that allowed the mint to begin issuing the Bicentennial coins in mid-1975. this would permit and extra six months of production. But it introduced another problem. It meant that there would only be six months production of 1975 dated quarters, halves and dollars. That could result in a modern scarcity and hoarding of those coins. So the same legislation that gave us the early Bicentennial coinage also put in place a date freeze on the 1974 coins allowing them to be struck through mid-1975.

 

According to my research, Public Law 93-127 was enacted so that the coinage was released by July 4, 1975 in order to coincide with a year long celebration of the nation's bicentennial. Although I have yet to review the committee reports, Congressional Record discussions about the coin say nothing about hoarding.

 

The Congressional Record quotes Sen. John Tower (R-TX), the senator that introduced S.1141 during the first session of the 93rd Congress, saying that enough coins should be minted to allow every citizen to save these coins. Tower also noted that the proceeds from collectible sales would be provided to the American Revolution Bicentennial Administration (Public Law 93-176)--which was pending technical corrections at the time.

 

Further, if you real PL 93-127, the bill only covered changes for the dollar and half-dollar coins. The decision to change the quarter was made after the review of the designs by the CFA. According to letters from the CFA to the House Committee on Banking and Currency, the CFA was torn between a design that captured the Independence Hall to represent the location of the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the Jack Ahr Drummer Boy design. The CFA wanted to keep a moon-based design when changing the reverse of the Eisenhower Dollar from the Apollo 11 Mission Insignia.

 

There is a reference of a letter that Mint Director Mary Brooks wrote to Treasury Secretary William Simon asking about using a clause in 31 U.S.C. Sect. 5112 to make the change to the quarter without congressional approval. That provision, which was repealed in 1984, allowed the Secretary of the Treasury to change the design of any coin that has been in circulated for at least 35 years. Rather than make this change, Secretary Simon wrote a letter to the House and corresponding Senate committees to support the recommendation of the CFA.

 

Although I am searching for evidence of the response, apparently, there were no problems. Secretary Simon authorized the change to use Independence Hall for the half-dollar and the Drummer Boy design for the quarter. There appears to be no discussion recorded in the Congressional Record. Further, legislative archives show that no changes were ever made to Public Law 93-127.

 

There was controversy. While the CFA preferred the Drummer Boy design and that there were few arguments over the Eisenhower Dollar Liberty Bell/Moon design, delegations from Southeast Pennsylvania insisted that something representing the role of Philadelphia with the birth of the nation. There are a dozen letters written to congress referencing over 100 letters from Philadelphia demanding something from the Philadelphia historic district on the coins. Letters show that there was an additional design aside from the Independence Hall design. The CFA rejected that design. So far, there is no detailed reference to that design--more reseach is needed.

 

As part of the compromise, the CFA recommended the Drummer Boy for the Half dollar and the Independence Hall design for the quarter. However, Mint Chief Engraver Frank Gasparo wrote a letter to the Secretary and Mint Director saying that the small size of the quarter would minimize the impact of the Independence Hall design. That letter was referenced by a letter Sec. Simon sent to congress to keep them updated as to the progress. The first evidence found that the design was going to changed was when Simon indicated that the Drummer Boy design was going to be used on the quarter.

 

And so it was written... so it was done.

 

I have found a good bit of the correspondence with the House and Senate committees including the letters sent by Sec. Simon. I also have copies of the Congressional Record and most of the House's committee reports (I am waiting to get access to the Senate archives). In the documents I have read, I have never seen any discussion on hoarding. On the contrary, Sen. Tower wanted to flood the market with the coins in celebration.

 

Edited: I had it backwards... I have the files from the House Committee on Banking and Money. I am waiting for the Clerk of the Senate to provide me with the information I need to get the files from the Senate Banking and Finance Committee from that era.

 

In some cases, the program was seen as a failure. As part of the congressional report on the Coin Act of 1984 (which brought us the American Eagle Bullion program), it was noted that over $4 million of unrecoverable costs of bicentennial collectibles were destroyed in 1981 for lack of sales. The coins were recycled.

 

The Mint's annual report for Fiscal Year 1974 said that they anticipated the minting of 1974 dated quarters through the second quarter of FY1975 (Jan-Mar 1975) in order to meet the demands of commerce. The Mint is in the process of replying to a FOIA request for the 1975 report to see what they say. I am going to request the Mint's Annual Reports for every year up until FY1984 to see what it has to say.

 

Of course this meant there were no 1975 dated coins for the proof sets and mint sets. So it was decided that since the Bicentennials could be issued early they would include them in the sets.

 

One thing we have to learn about the Mint, any major issues cannot be just "decided." Everything the Mint does is prescribed by law. Sure there are exceptions (see the 1913 Liberty Head Nickels), but when talking about a program that surrounded the highly visible American Revolution Bicentennial, the Mint does not "decide" anything without approval. PL 93-127 prescribes 1975 numismatic collectibles (e.g., annual sets) to include these coins. This was intentional.

 

 

I know my research has some gaps, I am filling in the gaps based on logical progression. For example, there are public articles noting Frank Gasparo's displeasure with how the design process was handled. It has been reported that Gasparo wrote quite a few letters to the Mint Director and CFA about these issues. So when a letter appears in a congressional committee file that detailed Gasparo's letter of concern on the design and coining ability, I assume the letter exists and I need to find it to complete the research. Besides, there are reports that Gasparo's letters are very entertaining and worth reading.

 

I hope that helps with your understanding.

 

Scott

[jgrinz]

Awesome research Thanks

[cladking]

In some cases, the program was seen as a failure. As part of the congressional report on the Coin Act of 1984 (which brought us the American Eagle Bullion program), it was noted that over $4 million of unrecoverable costs of bicentennial collectibles were destroyed in 1981 for lack of sales. The coins were recycled.

 

 

These were exclusively the 40% silver sets that had been run off on high speed presses in July of 1976. The mint had interpreted enabling legislation to mean that up to 11,000,000 sets could be produced but then at the last minute came to believe that all the sets were mandated by Congress. With only a couple weeks to act they ran off the final ones on high speed presses. These sets had dismal sales because the quality was horrid. Most of these coins were never actually assembled into sets and were just unceremoniously dumped into 55 G barrels and rolled into storage. Sets made from these coins are not often seen since many that were sold were melted in 1980. The plastic holder on these has no white stripe.

 

There was controversy. While the CFA preferred the Drummer Boy design and that there were few arguments over the Eisenhower Dollar Liberty Bell/Moon design, delegations from Southeast Pennsylvania insisted that something representing the role of Philadelphia with the birth of the nation. There are a dozen letters written to congress referencing over 100 letters from Philadelphia demanding something from the Philadelphia historic district on the coins. Letters show that there was an additional design aside from the Independence Hall design. The CFA rejected that design. So far, there is no detailed reference to that design--more reseach is needed.

 

It should be noted that the artists who submitted designs for the coins were told that the winning design would go on the quarter and second place on the half. If memory serves they all got the same pay however.

 

 

It should also be noted that the '74 date was retained to prevent the possibility of a short mint run. If memory serves the Denver mint produced only some 120 million coins in 1975 before switching to the '76 dated coins. It could have been even lower and even lower than the 99 million '68-D's made for circulation judging by conditions which prevailed in mid-'74.

[Conder101]

Thanks for the corrections Scott. You obviously have access to the official files. I was having to work from personal memories and from articles in the hobby press from over thirty years ago.

[DC Dawg]

Thanks for the corrections Scott. You obviously have access to the official files. I was having to work from personal memories and from articles in the hobby press from over thirty years ago.

I live in the DC area and happen to be researching the 1976 coinage for future publication. I am close enough to the Library of Congress and the National Archives to gather information.

 

I have a fascination for the 1976 coinage because it was really the first change in my life (I was too young for the Franklin-to-JFK half and clad coinage changes to have an impact). I've always thought the coins were neat. Even today, I still pull the 1976 quarters from change when I find them and buy half-dollar rolls and put aside the ones with the Independence Hall reverses.

 

I will publish what I hope is a complete story in a few months!

 

Scott

[EZ_E]

1976 Proof set:

 

I have very, very coins from my collection when I was a kid but I still have my 1976 proof set that I bought when it first came out.

 

I remember also the 1975 proof set. The cent almost immediately shot up to $25 per coin. That was alot of money in 1975, especially for a 10 year old kid.

 

 

ALL of the 40% silver dollars both Unc and proof were struck in 1975 and are type I.

 

Thank you very much for that information! I've often wondered that since I have the artist addition of the set. All are numbered 75 which is significant because that is the year the coins were minted, of course.

 

So...point is...

 

Cool Beans!

[WoodenJefferson]

I look forward to reading something like that...I read your post about the 1975 coinages and the laws, very informative. You might uncover something unheard before...who knows what history is behind the Bicentennial mintages.

 

edit:

Hard to believe this coin is already 30 years old...this is a raw MS 40% silver, it took me awhile to find one 30 years ago that was tic free. The open fields were not condusive for mishandling.

[Conder101]

I have a fascination for the 1976 coinage because it was really the first change in my life (I was too young for the Franklin-to-JFK half and clad coinage changes to have an impact).

That probably makes you and I about the same age. I was 14 in 1975 when the Bicentennials came out. I was there waiting at the bank when it opened, I believe it was July 2nd, to get the first half dollars. (The halves came out first, then the quarters. The dollars didn't come out until close to the end of the year.)

 

I remember also the 1975 proof set. The cent almost immediately shot up to $25 per coin. That was alot of money in 1975, especially for a 10 year old kid.

The 1975 proof sets and the three coin Bicentennial proof sets were the last coins I ordered from the mint.

 

Like you say the cent in the 1975 set jumped to $25 each, probably because it was the first year they were proof set only. All five of the cents in my sets were smeared with a black tar like substance. Completely ruined.