Ok, now we know some of these NGC coins are AT: How Are "They" Doing It?

[braddick]

Tone2003. ASwimmer. There are others. Now that we suspect some of these coins are AT, how is it done? How are the REDS and GREENS getting there? I was always told "If it is green, it brings the green" because green could not be faked.

 

Let's get past the cigarette lighters and potatos. No oven stories. What chemicals/ resources are being used to cause these colors?

And, why is NGC missing the signs of AT?

[GDJMSP]

I personally think your statement should be directed to all the grading companies - not just NGC.

 

As for how it is being done - I do not think it should be published in public or we will definitely see a whole lot more of it.

 

And in regard to how the grading companies are missing the signs of AT - well the people doing it are just getting that good at it. Sure there are those who are inept and their work is obvious. But just as certainly as these folks exists - there are those who can tone a coin in such a manner that no one can tell the difference.

 

Somebody else asked me this question not long ago - " if you can't tell the difference - does it matter ? "

[kranky]

Somebody else asked me this question not long ago - " if you can't tell the difference - does it matter ? "

 

I think it matters to the people who pay large premiums for toned coins.

 

I agree that the doctors are getting better. And that's to be expected, because all the planets are in proper alignment for the coin doctors.

 

- Many cases where a white coin is $30 but the same coin with great toning is worth 50x that price or more. Huge incentive to improve AT techniques.

 

- Limitless supply of cheap, raw materials (Unc Morgans). If a doctor ruins a coin through experimentation, no great loss.

 

- No way to authoritatively determine AT vs. NT. That only leaves "market acceptable" as the benchmark, so as long as the coin looks good enough, it will be judged good enough. They can't tell for sure if the coin is AT or not.

 

- Big market for toned coins right now. That allows the doctors to get their home run coins into top-tier slabs, while the singles and doubles can still be sold on ebay.

[Hoot]

If so-called AT coins are making it into holders, what makes US think we're so clever that WE know they're AT? I doubt that many of us know what well-done AT is and have little to second guess the graders on. This kind of knowledge will have to emerge among us from (1) experience with coins that are nicely toned turning rapidly in their holders, and (2) from finding out the techniques ourselves and knowing what the exact results are.

 

I think that the latter point is what Pat was getting at. I think that knowledge of AT techniques and outcomes only in the hands of dishonest people is fairly dangerous. The only way to "disarm" these efforts is to open up a good knowledge base.

 

Hoot

[BigAl-migration]

Many cases where a white coin is $30 but the same coin with great toning is worth 50x that price or more. Huge incentive to improve AT techniques.

 

hammer....nail....head....

 

As long as their remains an incentive, the practice will perpetuate. AT a common date morgan, get it slabbed, possibly get a * for your efforts, and net out hundreds dollars.

 

Sounds like a quick/easy way to make some extra beer money.

 

[robertpr-migration]

Did someone say AT? Anyone want to tell me how this could be NT? Anyone?

 

(p.s. thanks, Braddick, for posting this one across the street)

 

 

[coinman1794]

Anyone want to tell me how this could be NT? Anyone?

 

The reverse! The reverse is NT

 

[braddick]

Did someone say AT? Anyone want to tell me how this could be NT? Anyone?

 

(p.s. thanks, Braddick, for posting this one across the street)

 

You know what is totally out of whack?! I truly believe the COIN is NT it is the IMAGE that is "AT"!

(See the ghosting next to the stars on the obverse? That's an indication of real toning. AT (usually) doesn't provide that effect.)

[robertpr-migration]

Yes now that I look closer, the image probably was enhanced. I see he couldn't stay in the lines Still, when I first saw it....

[gmarguli]

Did someone say AT? Anyone want to tell me how this could be NT? Anyone?

 

(p.s. thanks, Braddick, for posting this one across the street)

 

 

That's a Bondman22 coin. He tweaks his scans so much the coins don't look ANYTHING like his photos. Hell, given his reputation, that coin could be brilliant.

 

[GDJMSP]

If so-called AT coins are making it into holders, what makes US think we're so clever that WE know they're AT? I doubt that many of us know what well-done AT is and have little to second guess the graders on. This kind of knowledge will have to emerge among us from (1) experience with coins that are nicely toned turning rapidly in their holders, and (2) from finding out the techniques ourselves and knowing what the exact results are.

 

I think that the latter point is what Pat was getting at. I think that knowledge of AT techniques and outcomes only in the hands of dishonest people is fairly dangerous. The only way to "disarm" these efforts is to open up a good knowledge base.

 

Hoot

 

You are absolutely correct Hoot. I just wish there were a way to discuss this issue and point out the things the doctors do and how they do it - without telling the whole world at the same time.

 

I know of a couple people who can do just about anything they want to a coin. And neither you & I nor the vast majority of the coin graders could tell it was anything but original. I often doubt if ANYBODY could tell. They are that good. That's the whole problem. Luckily these people do not practice ATing coins and selling them.

 

My question above about does it matter was rhetorical. It matters to me and I'm sure it matters to a lot of others. But when ya can't tell - ya can't tell.

[Oldtrader3]

"A Better Life Through Chemistry". There is no certainty about AT vs. NT. The grading services draw a line in the sand and say that this color combination crosses the line and that one doesn't. Silver is reactive enough to be colored by many chemicals and processes.

 

Is accelerating aging (at 80 degrees Celcius) in an album page for 3 weeks AT? Is putting a coin in an album for 3-4 years AT? They will end up pretty much the same color, just faster. Is AT any different really, than dipping the [!@#%^&^] out of a coin to eliminate ugly toning?

 

This whole discussion and subject is a slippery slope. Particularly when all these highly colored coins are headed for Cobalt or Black toning anyway, sooner or later, unless they are hermetically sealed in an inert gas. The problem is the human foible for pretty objects. Should coins be pretty colors? Should they be blazing mint luster white? Should they be just whatever they end up as after however many years of existance. The root of evil is, as always, money.

 

I don't have an answer for anyone, but I personally won't pay 10X sheet for a highly colored coin. Any more than I would buy a Dot.Com stock.

 

[LEAKYCOIN]

Pat,

As certain chemicals are burned they turn different colors. Copper turns green as it is burned. As they heat these silver coins they place a copper wire in the flame next to the coin and it turns the coin a neat green color. Different alloys can turn the coin different colors with the addition of heat.

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS

 

[braddick]

Pat,

As certain chemicals are burned they turn different colors. Copper turns green as it is burned. As they heat these silver coins they place a copper wire in the flame next to the coin and it turns the coin a neat green color. Different alloys can turn the coin different colors with the addition of heat.

 

KINGKOIN KING OF KOINS