If problem coins can be market acceptable ...

[Zoins]

... is it also possible that one day in the future counterfeits will also become market acceptable?

 

One defense for net grading an improperly cleaned coin with AT is that the TPG can't be certain that the toning is AT, but what about the cleaned part? Maybe it's market acceptable cleaning?

 

What if a counterfeit was so good that the TPG can't be certain if it's a counterfeit? Would they just go ahead and slab it the way they net grade and slab problem coins? Would this be a lucrative market to engage in?

[TomB]

The TPGs have in the past sent coins back in bags that they could not be certain were genuine.

[MAULEMALL]

... is it also possible that one day in the future counterfeits will also become market acceptable?

 

One defense for net grading an improperly cleaned coin with AT is that the TPG can't be certain that the toning is AT, but what about the cleaned part? Maybe it's market acceptable cleaning?

 

What if a counterfeit was so good that the TPG can't be certain if it's a counterfeit? Would they just go ahead and slab it the way they net grade and slab problem coins? Would this be a lucrative market to engage in?

If I am not mistaken, Omega's are and have been collected for some time.

[Zoins]

If I am not mistaken, Omega's are and have been collected for some time.

Yes but I'm assuming they are collected for what they are, very good reproductions. But what if the Omegas were made without the Omega symbol and slabbed by a TPG as market acceptable genuine?

[SkyMan]

Let's not forget counterfeits are illegal. I suspect the government would like to destroy them.

[BillJones]

If the TPGs go down the road of certifying counterfeits, they are headed on the road to hell.

 

I guess there are people out there who have collected the Omega counterfeiter's stuff. Heck I've seen major dealers offer the stuff "under the table" at shows as Omega counterfeits - an example of Omega’s high relief $20 gold comes to mind ...

 

Still think that such actions are unconscionable because somewhere down the line these pieces will be offered to neophytes as the real thing. Coins that have been preserved or improved are one thing ... I've come to the conclusion that almost all early copper has had something done to it at one time or another because "pure" copper or the stuff that the early mint issued as pure copper was so chemically reactive ... but COUNTERFEIT is very much another.

 

Bottom-line if the TPG certify counterfeits, their days of usefulness will be over.

[Zoins]

Let's not forget counterfeits are illegal. I suspect the government would like to destroy them.

Well yes, but the War on Drugs gets a lot more attention and look how successful that is....

[Conder101]

Bottom-line if the TPG certify counterfeits, their days of usefulness will be over.

They do slab some counterfeits. There are some colonial coppers that were contemporary counterfeits, Machins Mills pieces, I have seen slabbed contemporary counterfeit halfpence (I have seen some counterfeit halfpence slabbed as machin Mills and vice versa) And there are many Conder tokens that were counterfeits a which I believe NGC will slab.

[PerryHall]

PCGS slabbed a couple hundred counterfeit Morgan dollars (1896, 1900, and 1902---all with the micro O mintmark). These were contemporary counterfeits and were very convincing. PCGS offered to buy them back but many still remain in collections as collectibles in their own right.

[lkenefic]

I've not seen any slabbed...but what about the early copper electrotypes? I've seen several for sale recently and while the sale price reflected it was a copy, a less indoctrinated collector might be fooled if someone were to commit a fraud using one of these pieces. Interesting thread...L

[Hoot]

I've cracked two counterfeit coins (both Matron Head large cents that I sold to a major copper dealer for his counterfeit collection) out of TPG holders, one of which was readily identifiable from the obverse and reverse and one that was identified by the edge. These were mistakes, however, and I believe that zoins' initial post was about TPGs intentionally doing this. I'm quite certain they won't, as the liability is entirely too great.

 

Hoot

[gmarguli]

And there are many Conder tokens that were counterfeits a which I believe NGC will slab.

 

NGC does not slab the counterfeit Conder tokens. At least they bagged as counterfeit one I submitted even though it was submitted with the correct D&H number which lists it as a counterfeit.

[MikeInFL]

Interesting theory, but I'm not sure I agree with the logic...

 

Counterfeit coins are either counterfeit or not -- it is an objective assessment.

 

AT, cleaning, etc., are subjective determinations -- thus the use of the term market acceptable.

 

Given the subjectivity associated with "market acceptable", the most valuable service that TPGs provide (at least in my eyes) is the guarantee that the coin is authentic. If they start down the path of market acceptability of countefeit coins, they will filling out their bankruptcy papers shortly thereafter, IMHO....Mike

[Zoins]

And there are many Conder tokens that were counterfeits a which I believe NGC will slab.

NGC does not slab the counterfeit Conder tokens. At least they bagged as counterfeit one I submitted even though it was submitted with the correct D&H number which lists it as a counterfeit.

I don't know if NGC grades the counterfeit Conders or not but maybe they thought yours was a counterfeit of a counterfeit?

[gmarguli]

And there are many Conder tokens that were counterfeits a which I believe NGC will slab.

NGC does not slab the counterfeit Conder tokens. At least they bagged as counterfeit one I submitted even though it was submitted with the correct D&H number which lists it as a counterfeit.

I don't know if NGC grades the counterfeit Conders or not but maybe they thought yours was a counterfeit of a counterfeit?

 

That thought actually did cross my mind, but it was a low grade coin not worthy of being counterfeited.