SS Central America Ten Dollar Horseman

[Zoins]

I just ran across this PCGS encapsulated SS Central America shipwreck 49er Horseman 10 dollar gold coin. The description says its made from gold bars recovered on the SS Central America which makes me believe this is a modern strike perhaps less than 10 years old. Does anyone know when these were minted? If these are a modern strike, are these restrikes using original dies or new dies made to look the same? There is some additional text on the reverse below "Baldwin & Co" and under the eagle but above "San Francisco" that I can't make out. Photos I've seen of the original don't have this extra text. Does anyone know what that text says and if it is a modern strike, does it include the word COPY as required by the Hobby Protection Act?

[Conder101]

Yes it is a modern striking, only five years old. It uses new dies and it does not have to comply with the Hobby Protection Act because the inscription below the eagle reads "* 2002 SS Central America". So it is clearly marked that it is a modern striking.

 

You can go here to see a large picture of the piece.

 

49 horseman

[jtryka]

Does the hobby protection act apply to non-government issues? (i.e. provately minted territorial coinage)?

[Zoins]

Thanks for the information and link Conder101. That's very useful.

Does the hobby protection act apply to non-government issues? (i.e. provately minted territorial coinage)?

From reading Hobby Protection Act on collectors.org, I would interpret it to cover non-government issues. The definition of "orginal numismatic item" does not specify the US government has to be the issuer for the original numismatic item and neither does anywhere else in the quoted act.

(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.

[michael]

yuk!!!

 

BUT.............................

 

i would love this token at melt value plus 10% and forget all the rest of the marketing and packaging...........

 

and currently this is approximately $330.00

[michael]

dont waste your money on dreck

 

buy a nice circ. trade dollar instead or a nice circ. twenty cent piece

[Zoins]

dont waste your money on dreck

 

buy a nice circ. trade dollar instead or a nice circ. twenty cent piece

Or ... look for an original 1850 Baldwin California Horseman. This is my favorite 19th century American gold design so far.

forget all the rest of the marketing and packaging...........

I actually don't mind and prefer to have original marketing and packaging from both the US Mint and private mints though the premium I'm willing to pay depends on how old/rare the packaging is. Sometimes there's interesting information on there.

[shirohniichan]

I like the design a lot, but I would be more likely to pay a premium if the coins were restruck from the original dies or from transfers of the originals.

 

Although I like the design, I'd be like Michael and only pay a small premium for the token paying tribute to the coin.

 

How much are they currently selling for?

[Zoins]

I'm not sure. I've decided I'm not interested in acquiring this reproduction so I didn't research prices. However, I'm still interested in learning about it and would like a chance to read the marketing/packaging materials. For this design, my preference is to get an original. I've been less interested in mirrored proof finishes as of late and tend to prefer original designs across all price ranges.

[PerryHall]

I would be more likely to pay a premium if the coins were restruck from the original dies or from transfers of the originals.

 

I believe these were struck from transfer dies.

[michael]

there is a huge pricefor the original horseman ten i think it is like 150k

 

Among all territorial and private gold coins, the 1860 Clark, Gruber & Company is one of the most interesting to own. Dave Bowers' book, More Adventures with Rare Coins, devoted a chapter to this specific issue.

 

now if you wqant to get aq really historical cool coin get a mountain ten from denver colorado these are more affordable and almost as rare

 

and a cool coin to boot struck by clark gruber and this firm turned into the denver mint historical and way cool

 

also thess coins were made with native gold and many colorado gold coins are much scarcer and yet as historical as their california counterparts but scarcer as not many firms in colorado as compaired to cali.

 

also all the colorado gold coinage is pre civil war and the mountain ten is like one of the most all time easy reconizable popular gold territorial coinage

 

take a look at these links links to get a better idea

 

http://coinfacts.com/pioneer_gold/clark_gruber_and_company/1860_clark_gruber_ten_dollars.htm

 

http://www.kancoll.org/khq/1973/73_1_gower.htm

 

http://www.pikes-peak.com/Attraction/22.aspx

 

and finally the piece de resistance and usually these are damaged repaired to find an totally original never repaired and never cleaned coin is the ultimate in rarity and desirability

 

http://www.stacks.com/lotdetail.aspx?lrid=AN00042762&fs=true

[World Colonial]

I believe this item was struck by the Gallery Mint Museum. They also struck a "restrike" of the Kellog & Company $50 gold. I've seen many more of the $50's and they seem to sell for between two and three times melt. The last one I saw was selling for a substantial discount to the original price but that was before gold prices made their most recent increase.

[Conder101]

The restrike $50'scontained 2.5 oz of gold and I believe the original issue price was around $5,000. WAY more than the gold content could come close to. Gold was what in the $350 to $400 range in 2002?

[michael]

buy an original contempory territorial pioneer gold coin

 

you will never regret it

[PerryHall]

Anyone know the mintage of the Kellog and Horseman restrikes?

[Zoins]

Anyone know the mintage of the Kellog and Horseman restrikes?

What is the right phrase for transfer die strikes. Calling the 2002 Horseman and Kellogg SS Central America restrikes seems wrong because it implies original dies were used for the actual striking. It also does a disservice to true restrikes such as the Haseltine CSA restrikes that used original dies.

 

According to the bay auction description in the first post, the 2002 Horseman has a mintage of 4006. This other bay auction also mentions a mintage of 4006 for the Horseman. It says the original suggested retail price was $1,750 but have sold higher in the past (up to $5k?). There are several on the bay now with BINS ranging from $1,275 to $1,477. The description says it was minted by the Royal Canadian Mint which makes sense because that looks like the RCM crest before 2002 on the reverse.

[Zoins]

buy an original contempory territorial pioneer gold coin

 

you will never regret it

It's on the list but this seems to be an area that requires some amount of study before jumping in. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time for additional study right now. I'm currently reading "The Coming of the Third Reich" by Richard Evans in my spare time which I find extremely informative and interesting but slow going, probably partially because it mentions so many people.

[michael]

send me 35 dollars and i will send you the kagins book on territiroal gold the standard book on territorials

 

wirth much information on all the pinoeer gold and much histriircal informati on

 

a think har4d cover book and with many photos and like new

 

a superb book

[Zoins]

Thanks for the offer and thought michael. It sounds like a great book but I'm going to pass for now. There's just too much on my plate for me to start a new area of study right now. Maybe once I can clear off some things I'll come back to this.

[shirohniichan]

I would be more likely to pay a premium if the coins were restruck from the original dies or from transfers of the originals.

 

I believe these were struck from transfer dies.

 

I haven't seen one in person, but the photo I saw of one made me think it was struck from newly engraved dies.

[Zoins]

there is a huge pricefor the original horseman ten i think it is like 150k

 

Among all territorial and private gold coins, the 1860 Clark, Gruber & Company is one of the most interesting to own.

In case anyone is interested, I just did a search for the Clark Gruber 1860 Pikes Peak and found that one sold in the February 5-8, 2006 Goldberg Pre-Long Beach Auction, 1860 PCGS MS62 for $59k, pop 5/2/0.

 

I also ran across this PCGS page that indicates copper, brass and silver die trials exist of the Clark Gruber pieces.

 

I'm adding to this thread because, interestingly enough, it also came up on Google

[michael]

i love all the gold pikes peak colorado coins from 1860-1861

 

you can get a nice choice xf-au early $5 or ten from 1861 for less than a mountain ten from 1860 if you so desire

 

and of course the ultimate is a nice originally skinned unc. pikes peak gold coin these coins in unc. are true historical masterpieces of the great western gold rush of the middle of the 19th century