PCGS or NGC for Morgans

[azmorganman]

Hi all, great boards. Well after about a 3 year hiatus I'm back to my passion-Morgans. I guess my question would be who do you think does a better/more consistant job at grading morgans-PCGS or NGC? In my observations I have noted more consistancy with NGC and also a perhaps more relaxed grading criteria in some cases vs. PCGS. Also I have some PCGS that I might want to send to NCG. Is it better to send them slabbed or crack them out? Thanks.

[paigow_johnny]

Most of my slabbed Morgans are NGC (bought them that way...I don't submit) ...and, although I prefer the NGC holder for aesthetic reasons, I think they're both pretty good/equal with Morgans

[BushMan]

Welcome to the CS boards. Glad to hear you are again actively involved in the hobby. My experience has been that there doesn't appear to be a bias at NGC for coins submitted for a crossover (in the holder). The graders at NGC will give you the grade the coin deserves. I can't say the same across the street. Over there, you are well advised to crack the coin out of it's holder and submit it raw, if you want a fair grade.

 

Your observations about the two services are accurate. NGC has built a reputation for consistent grading. Their standards are not constantly changing. I will say that many series, including the Morgan, seem to have tougher standards in the past 6 months. Coins in their new holder have a greater appeal to this collector.

 

To be fair, PCGS does have a reputation for tougher grading standards and for such they tend to receive a premium, relative to NGC coins, at time of sale. Good luck and let us know how you do with your crossovers.

[MAULUMALL]

I use NGC for uniformity.I too have a couple Morgans that I will be sending in to NGC for crossovers.(ANACS graded)

 

NGC wins out on custermer service. They LIsten.

All the [!@#%^&^] about higher resale for PCGS is just that ,[!@#%^&^].

 

You seem to know your way around a MORGAN so I am sure you Buy The Coin.

 

 

Welcome to the boards.

 

 

 

Scratch what I said.........I want EVRYONE to think PCGS does a Better job.

I have gotten some great values from their ignorance.

[BigAl-migration]

Great post. As a morgan collector I've often wondered the same myself. My experience (albeit limited compared to others on the boards) leads me to believe that overall NGC is more consistent with respect to morgan grades than PCGS, however they seem more liberal with dmpl designations. I would agree with the poster who stated that PCGS has tougher standards, but I would add that the difference is more recognizable in MS64+ grades.

 

Good topic, hopefully others will contribute.

 

 

[MAULUMALL]

Also if you wish to see your coins this year your only option is NGC.

PCGS is backed up .

[dragon]

BushMan,

 

Unfortunately you don't know what you're talking about and should refrain from giving out bad information on this forum.

 

dragon

[gmarguli]

I don't submit many Morgans, but the last time I did I sent some to both services. The NGC ones were graded exactly how I thought they should be. The PCGS ones were graded 1-2 points HIGHER than I thought. Yes, I said HIGHER. Selling them sight unseen (eBay) I actually did better with the NGC ones.

 

I don't think you will find many people who will say my experience was normal.

 

Having said that, both services are about the same on Morgans. I think that PCGS will give the Morgans a little grade bump higher than NGC for nice eye appeal, which isn't true for other series.

 

Overall, on average I can't see much of a difference in price when selling or grading.

 

Personally, I'd send them to NGC because I don't want to wait 3-4 months for my coins to be returned. Also, I want to support the grading service that supports its own customers and not treats them like dirt like PCGS does.

[BushMan]

BushMan,

 

Unfortunately you don't know what you're talking about and should refrain from giving out bad information on this forum.

 

dragon

 

Now would you be the same fellow that sold Keets his PQ MS-66++, high end for the grade, Morgan??

[dragon]

Yes Bushman, that would be me, I am the one who sold the really nice 66DMPL piece, and who would you be as I don't recall your handle? Please stop giving out erroneous info on the coin forums.

 

dragon

[jom]

I don't see anything in Bushman's post that is blatantly inaccurate or, at least, no better or no worse than most opinions around here. If there is, dragon, please elaborate.

 

jom

[azmorganman]

Well, didn't mean to open up any old wounds here Thanks all for the input. The reason I asked the question in the first place was because I believe I got some bad calls from PCGS. The last submit to them was about 3 years ago soon after they began taking direct submissions. It just struck me at the time that the dealers had a huge edge in the grading process compared the the "Joe Shmoe" that sent theirs in with the "collectors club". While some of the grades I could agree with I had an 84-O that I would have bet a months salary on would be an easy 65 yet came back a 63. Strike was a little weak but I have seen the same strike on Heritage with a 65. This makes me think that the average "dude or dudette" was not given the same kind of consideration as were the dealers. Yeah I know you got to buy the coin but having that coin in the right holder in a lot of cases should save one some aggrevation if and when it comes tome to sell or trade.

[dragon]

azmorganman,

 

No wounds were opened, some individuals just like to post without any facts or knowledge of what they say which is unfortunate....in any case, about your original question:

 

As far as Morgan dollars are concerned, there are those that will say NGC has virtually 'closed the gap' as far as tightness of grading standards as well as the market pricing between NGC and PCGS coins. While NGC coins (Morgan dollars) have indeed made some headway in the last 12-24 months regarding both sight seen and sight unseen pricing, PCGS coins still bring more money in the vast majority of cases on a grade for grade basis, both on the bourse floor and at major auctions. Many of the top dollar dealers in the country such as Mike Bobb, Legend, Gus Tiso, etc. still primarily sell and deal in only PCGS graded dollars with few exceptions. When trying to sell PCGS graded dollars, I doubt you will ever hear a major dollar dealer at a big show tell you "I'm only buying NGC coins now" or "cross it to NGC and I'll buy it" or "I would pay more for that piece if it was in an NGC holder", etc., although to be fair, many dealers will buy NGC graded pieces at good prices if they like the actual coin but PCGS coins are generally far easier to sell at top prices in todays markets.

 

As far as consistency of grading over the years, Bushman really has no clue when he makes statements about NGC like "Their standards are not constantly changing". The truth is since NGC's inception back in the late 80's, their standards have literally been all over the map regarding Morgan dollars. In the late 80's right after NGC opened, their standards on Morgans were on par with PCGS if not even a bit tighter, and their coins also traded in the market right on par with PCGS for the most part. Sometime in the early 90's, NGC took a huge nosedive and significantly relaxed their grading standards across the board, and their coins subsequently traded at a large discount to PCGS graded coins. Their worst (most relaxed) grading seems to have been in the early to mid 90's and continued up to about 1997-1998 or so. NGC then tightened their standards again, and then yet again in the past 12-24 months, where today they grade Morgans pretty much on par with PCGS and to the same standard with the possible exception of DMPL graded pieces. PCGS and NGC grading for Morgans is now once again very similar as it was back in the late 80's however this doesn't mean that pricing is on par as it was back in the 80's. It's my observation that the majority of collectors and dealers will still prefer PCGS graded Morgans over NGC for whatever the reason, either perceived or actual, and while this long standing trend may or may not change over the next 2-5 years, that is the reality of the marketplace now and people speak with their pocketbooks.

 

While PCGS has also definately changed grading standards over the past 17+ years, it is a farse and simply untrue to say that NGC is more consistent as they have had just as big (really even bigger) changes in standards within the same time frame.

 

So what all this comes down to is that if you just want coins graded and in a so-called top tier holder, send them to either service, if you plan on selling these coins in the near to very near future, grade for grade they will more than likely bring better prices as well as be easier to sell without an explanation in PCGS plastic. I really have no preference as there are tons of dogs in both companies holders as well as average to really nice pieces in both.

 

dragon

 

 

 

 

 

[BushMan]

I don't see anything in Bushman's post that is blatantly inaccurate or, at least, no better or no worse than most opinions around here. If there is, dragon, please elaborate.

 

jom

 

Jom- You are correct. Seems Dragon's extremely defensive position was more of an attack due to his feelings for someone else. Found this across the street.

 

and watch out for Lucy. She almost got dragon at the last show.

 

 

[Elcontador]

I don't see much diff between the two services re Morgans, but I only have 3 of them (an 83 CC in 5, one 84 CC in 5 & another one in 6) & don't spend a lot of time looking at them.

 

Dragon has quite a bit of experience with this series. It would be nice if Dog, Art R. and Gemtone65 would add their input to this thread.

[Dog97]

azmorganman-

Generally speaking both companies are about the same when it comes to Morgans. Both companies use well qualified graders and the large Morgan can easily be graded accurately & constantly even by a blind man. People who cracked out an overgraded coin from tone of the looser periods and submitted it to the other company during the tighter periods & vice versa are making an unfair & biased comparison. Dragon explains that well.

I will say that personally speaking, of late if the Morg is a CC or a toner I think both companies are sloppy & inconsistent.

 

"Also I have some PCGS that I might want to send to NCG. Is it better to send them slabbed or crack them out?"

If you truly know your series and believe in the coin feel free to crack them out BUTT, be warned, once you remove it from the holder all bets are off as far as the grade & attributions the holder provides are concerned so if you do not feel comfortable with your abilities then it's best to leave it in the holder it's in & use the crossover or regrade service or what ever is applicable.

 

[BigAl-migration]

would be nice if Dog, Art R. and Gemtone65 would add their input to this thread.

 

I second that emotion...

 

Additionally, another poster made a remark in another thread referring to a price "correction" in CC morgans. Would like to know how other morgan collectors view this (agree/disagree, severity, which dates, time frame, longevity, etc...)

 

[keithdagen]

Here's my simple opinion - and I state up front I know little about Morgans, owning two slabbed, one for a Type set, the other for scanning purposes:

 

As long as your coins are nice, solid coins, they will benefit from either service's holder. I personally have been sending stuff to NGC lately because I value having quick turnaround times, but I have submitted to both services in the past.

[michael]

for dmpl morgans there is only the AAA service that does an overall great job and the coins bring all the money so to speak

the other service BBB forget it

 

as many to most of the BBB service coins are basically unsaleable unless at huge discounts compaired to the AAA service most all of the BBB coins would never cross at the same grade and designation at the AAA service

 

and rightly so

 

for me it still remains that because of all the overgradeing and over designateing of the BBB service in all the years past with the excpetion of very few coins this really hurts the market for the holdered BBB coins

 

now tomorrow is always aonther day filled with hope and promise

 

and from my personal experience the above is correct as to my opinion

 

are there monster great coins accurately graded and designated in BBB service holders yes yes yes but few and far between especially so when you refer to dmpl morgans

 

not good or bad or right or wrong

JUST THE WAY IT IS FROM MY PERSPECTIVE LOOKING AT MANY DMPL MORGAN COINS IN BBB AND AAA HOLDERS SINCE 1989

 

[ArtR]

Dog97 sums it up real well. I would pay particular attention to this portion of his post.

If you truly know your series and believe in the coin feel free to crack them out BUTT, be warned, once you remove it from the holder all bets are off as far as the grade & attributions the holder provides are concerned so if you do not feel comfortable with your abilities then it's best to leave it in the holder it's in & use the crossover or regrade service or what ever is applicable.

In the last few months I have sent several Morgans in for crossover from PCGS to NGC. I did not crack any out of there PCGS holders and they all crossed at the same grade.

All of the coins were toned. I honestly don't know how the crossing is with a white coin, but I would imagine if the coin is graded properly in the holder it resides in it will cross.

 

[dragon]

<<>>

 

Bushman, Your last post, as was your first in this thread is inane drivel, I am not defensive nor do I have any feelings for, or towards anyone including Lucy, nor do I know her or have I ever met her. Why don't you correct your false statements rather then making up additional off topic nonsense?

 

dragon

 

[BillJones]

Buy the coin, not the holder. Both companies have certified coins that are correctly graded; both companies have certifed coins that are overly conservative in their grade; and both companies have certified coins that are overgraded.

 

If you can buy the same quality of properly graded coin in an NGC holder for less money, write a check. Among most dealer transactions, the two companies are on a equal footing.

[dragon]

<<>>

 

BillJones, As far as Morgan dollars are concerned, that statement is not exactly true. For many specific dates, as well as many of the higher grades above MS65 and nearly all dates above MS64 in DMPL, PCGS coins consistently bring stronger prices, sometimes by a bit, and other times by a whole bunch. That is true for major auction prices realized, dealer to dealer tansactions, and retail sales. And usually the higher the grade, the bigger the price spread between the two.

 

As far as most of the generic material in lower grades, they do trade on basically equal footing, or at small spreads between the two services.

 

dragon

 

 

[Leothelion]

Hi

I only have F+ to BU dollars in all kinds of years from 1798 to 2003 and I don't have any plans for submitting to either. Well, ANACS comes to mind if I were to do so but from what I hear, you may need to resubmit much more to company BBB then AAA if your shooting for a certain grade for any one of your coins.

 

Leo

[BillJones]

I'm not in the "worder coin" business. I look for properly graded collector coins in MS-61 to 64 range. I've sold every date and mint mark in the Morgan Dollar series at one time or another including the 1893-S (Best AU-55, PQ), 1895 PR-63 and the 1889-CC (MS-61, P-L). I'm not interested in handing any monopolies to PCGS because in the long run collectors would get hurt badly if that happened. For my business, PCGS and NGC are on equal footing.

 

As for the extreme grades, I'd trade them if any of customers want them, but so far they have not. The highest grade coin I have sold was a PR-67, Cameo Liberty five dollar gold piece. That one was a true "wonder coin." It was nice or better than most of the commemorative gold coins that the mint issues today.

[Leothelion]

I would like to add that it depends on who is playing the better con game then the other. Obviously, GC BBB has the wool pulled over many more collectors eyes then GC AAA. Dealers are investors, if they can turn a buck, they stay in business. It's money to be made. But when the bottom falls out of the bull market I think the greater GC has much, much more to lose then the other. (They will have many more sorry custumers). So it depends if you want to strike it rich (or at least try) or look for something that's a little more stable in the long run. But I believe that can be a tough call with the investors constantly changing collectors interests.

 

Leo