Do you enjoy being the under-bidder?

[Zoins]

Lately I've lost a string of auctions as the under-bidder where my bid was substantially higher than the #3 bidder. The first few times I was upset that I lost because I had worked myself up to liking the item. Now that I've lost a number of times and can see a pattern, I need to make a decision:

 

(a) Start placing nuclear bids to see how much the other person really wants the item. Since I'm already placing bids that are substantially higher than the #3 bidder (stratosphere bids?), part of me wonders if the winning bidders (different bidders but similar types of items) have been placing nuclear bids already. Obviously, if two people place nuclear bids, the realized prices can lose touch with reality and turn into moon money.

 

(b) Stop bidding/collecting.

 

© Start enjoying being the under-bidder, knowing that you are substantially increasing the costs for items that some people really want. Accept that fact that you won't win many things if people are placing nuclear bids but that your bids will make their acquisitions more costly.

 

Clearly I can't go forward with a strategy that I really want the item and not be willing to bid substantially higher because I am not winning. So short of dramatically overbidding or stopping my collecting efforts, should I just accept being an under-bidder and start enjoying losing, i.e. treating it like a game to make people pay more?

[MunkyMan95]

Definitely not B, and C is just pointless.

[Zoins]

Definitely not B, and C is just pointless.

C doesn't hurt anyone because the winning bidder is still winning. But it can help me feel better about losing, a win-win situation

 

I'm thinking I can keep track of how much extra people have spent due to my participation. The more that number goes up, the more enjoyment I get Obviously, I will enjoy winning even more but this way I can enjoy losing as well.

[bsshog40]

I bid the maximum that "I" think the coin is worth to me. A lot depends on the quality of the coin, TPG if slabbed, and also the sellers feedback. If I get overbid then I don't fret over it that much. I know another will most likely come down the line again.

[Zoins]

If I get overbid then I don't fret over it that much. I know another will most likely come down the line again.

I'm not sure this is the case for the things I'm bidding on. I need to see more data but I'm thinking the things I'm going for are the types of things that you may only see once a year or perhaps much less. For some things, people have waited like 8 years. If that's truly the case, that may be a reason to place nuclear bids, however, I haven't seen enough data yet to determine how rare some of these things are.

[LuvToCollect]

I ascribe to the method of making a realistic evaluation of a coin to the best my my ability and I make my best offer.Sometime I win and sometimes I don't but at least with my best offer on the table I can't get too upset if over bid.

[MunkyMan95]

If I get overbid then I don't fret over it that much. I know another will most likely come down the line again.

I'm not sure this is the case for the things I'm bidding on. I need to see more data but I'm thinking the things I'm going for are the types of things that you may only see once a year or perhaps much less. For some things, people have waited like 8 years. If that's truly the case, that may be a reason to place nuclear bids, however, I haven't seen enough data yet to determine how rare some of these things are.

 

If you're bidding on things like that, then go for the gusto and bid it up.

[CarlWohlforth]

Bid less and bid more often. The excitement isn't as intense for me anymore now that I've placed thousands of bids. There are very few things I bid on that are irreplaceable. I will have another chance.

 

The large majority of my bids fail to secure the lot.

 

When you are the underbidder but are much higher than the bidder below you I guess you are bidding too much. If the "nuclear" bidder who you hope to outbid quits the hobby who will you sell to? The only person near you was much less so you paid too much in the first place.

[AU58WALKERS-migration]

I bid $175.00 on a certified coin 5 differnt times over the past year.

same date and grade and tpg.

 

Four times i lost the item by next increment to a huge difference bids.

 

On try number five I won the item for $137.00 and was thrilled to death with the

coin when I got it. (I was afraid it would be a dog for the grade of au58).

 

There is always another one out there. If not then a nuke bid is in order.

[Zoins]

If you're bidding on things like that, then go for the gusto and bid it up.

I'm already bidding a lot higher than the #3 bidder so I'm uncertain whether going higher will be worthwhile or if it will be moon money which I want to avoid. The other thing is that I actively compare the value of my bids to other ways I can enjoy my money, e.g. car, painting, sculpture, vacation, day of skiing, etc. For example, for me to spend $50 on a coin, it has to be at least as enjoyable as a day of resort skiing. Based on those two things, I will avoid bidding moon money for perceived rarity. I need to do more research before bidding more but until then it would be nice to bring some fun into losing.

[TomB]

Bid what it is worth to you and walk away if you lose. Bidding higher simply to extract more money out of the winning bidder may end up costing you in the end if you actually make the market appear to have moved forward in your niche. I have seen this happen to one collector recently and it cost him a substantial amount.

[Zoins]

When you are the underbidder but are much higher than the bidder below you I guess you are bidding too much.

I also think this and I intended to overbid which is why I'm shocked by, not one, but a string of losses. It's actually kind of mind boggling to me. Recently I saw an auction with a starting price and a description that said something along the lines of "this may seem high but it is reasonable in this market."

If the "nuclear" bidder who you hope to outbid quits the hobby who will you sell to? The only person near you was much less so you paid too much in the first place.

I agree, however, I had no intention of selling the items in question.

[Zoins]

Bid what it is worth to you and walk away if you lose. Bidding higher simply to extract more money out of the winning bidder may end up costing you in the end if you actually make the market appear to have moved forward in your niche. I have seen this happen to one collector recently and it cost him a substantial amount.

Extracting more money from the winner isn't the goal of option (a). The goal of the nuclear bid is to try and see where the other bidder's max bid is really at. But as you mention this is a risky strategy which is the reason for my reluctance. Even if I don't intend on selling the item, I have my limits. Thanks for mentioning the appearance of moving the market and the recent collector experience. That's good to know and take into consideration.

[MunkyMan95]

If you're bidding on things like that, then go for the gusto and bid it up.

I'm already bidding a lot higher than the #3 bidder so I'm uncertain whether going higher will be worthwhile or if it will be moon money which I want to avoid. The other thing is that I actively compare the value of my bids to other ways I can enjoy my money, e.g. car, painting, sculpture, vacation, day of skiing, etc. For example, for me to spend $50 on a coin, it has to be at least as enjoyable as a day of resort skiing. Based on those two things, I will avoid bidding moon money for perceived rarity. I need to do more research before bidding more but until then it would be nice to bring some fun into losing.

 

You searched 8 years for a $50 coin? Or was that just an example? What type of coins are these ayways, if I may ask?

[Zoins]

You searched 8 years for a $50 coin? Or was that just an example? What type of coins are these ayways, if I may ask?

The 8 years and $50 are separate examples and should not be linked. I'm going to hold off on answering your other question for now until I figure out how rare these things really are. I might end up calling up some dealers to extend my research. Currently, they don't appear to come up enough for me to want extra competition

[bsshog40]

Even if I don't intend on selling the item, I have my limits.

 

This should tell you how much to bid!!!!!!!

[MikeKing]

I haven't read through this whole post, but feel fairly strong enough about the choices that I've got to respond.

 

a. placing a nuclear bid is dangerous for yourself when it comes time to sell, and it inflates the price if two nuclear bidders compete against each other. This is not entirely uncommon. Take the 1963 ms70 lincoln penny (or something like that in the past few years)

 

b. to stop bidding/collecting is the only sure cure for what you're feeling, but I don't advise it.

 

c. to take pleasure being an underbidder because you've increased the cost to someone else is infantile, and anyone who feels that way needs to really self reflect, because that attitude will not be limited in your life to a mere bidding war over a coin.

 

on the other hand, to take pleasure in being an underbidder when you see the very coin you bid on listed as inventory of a major dealer with a hefty premium, is a reward for knowing you likely (and I say likely because it would be presumptuous to think that just because someone is a major dealer that they know coins) have good taste in coins.

 

overall, my advice would be to bid what YOU believe to be an appropriate price based on your own investigations into the kind of coin you desire and that you wish to own, using sanity as your guideline.

[CarlWohlforth]

You need to understand the bidding process at the venue where you bid if you want to learn the other persons's max bid.

 

For example if you are bidding on a coin you want that is offered by TeleTrade you should bid a max bid of 2 increments above the current bid. If you bid a max bid one inrement above you get a message you need to bid 2 above. If you bid 2 above and somebody else has that bid you are told "someone else has that bid" or something along those lines. That tells you there is another bidder at that price. If you make the max bid then you are no more than 2 increments above the 3'rd bidder.

 

Each venue has its own rules. Once you truly understand them you may have an opportunity to discover the other bidders "max price" with no risk.

 

When people learn the rules they ofen decide that their best strategy is to bid at the last second. Think about that.

[rexcat]

In the last year or two I’ve lost most of the auctions that I thought should have won with what I was willing to bid, (and when the bidding tiers are $50 and $100 you’d think your maximum bid would stand up).

 

I don’t really care much about a loss, when I make my bid I’ve thought long and hard as to what is my maximum value is for the coin and I’m not going to go beyond that point, even though some of the coins I’d like to fill my type set with may only cross my path once a year or less and the one up for auction is just sooo… nice.

 

It’s a large market place, there are the coins out there that fit my needs and I can only afford to buy only a few each year, so as I search for my next coin not only are strike, luster, eye appeal important aspects to consider, price is also a large part of the decision.

 

II tried unsuccessfully with three coins in Heritage’s FUN auctions earlier this month, and then while cruising about the web I come across that 1921 Peace at DLRC that I showed last week. I felt I did much better in price getting a lot more value with the coin I purchased retail then any of the coins that I had bid on in Heritages auction.

 

Actually I feel this can happen often, auctions can bring strong prices plus there’s the 15% juice that needs to be added. I’ve seen many auctions from both Ebay and coin auctions that the winning bidder could have bought the same coin out right for less not have had to mess around with an auction.

 

You have to put together your want list with spend time searching all of the venues you can, research so you can decide max value to you, (and stick with it bidding in auctions) and you will find the coins that make you happy at all levels.

[Oldtrader3]

I bid what the coin is worth to me and walk away until the auction is closed. If I do not win, there will be others on most coins. Only when I formerly bought scarcer gold coins would I play the highest bidding game and then only because it would be years before I saw another of that coin and grade offered. So, play accordingly.

[World Colonial]

I bid at the last minute to reduce the possibility of "snipe" bids and I believe I have a good idea of what the items I collect should sell for. The items I collect are hard to find and frequently I have to pay more or a lot more than the Krause price because it is out of date. But if the item I wanted to buy was easy to find like most items are, I would bid around catalogue or the latest trend and would not give a hoot if I did not win it. I would just bid on the next one when it came for sale again, which would probably be in a day or week for most items.

[WoodenJefferson]

I had a friend of mine, yes I have friends, put down a last second high bid of $405.00 on a hum-drum DMPL that was worth around $200-$225 max. His strategy was to not loose the coin to a bidder who was willing to go few dollars higher than he was willing to go.

 

Mind you now, this is sight unseen, only with auction images and the bidding was slow, slow, run up by only 15 bids prior the final close. He told me what the holding bid was, like $155.00 or close to that..memory is as long as the days are at times.

 

Someone else had the same idea he had and plunked down a last second $400.00 bid, guess who won? He could not believe his eyes..."You have won the item..." swallow...click on bidders list again and again to see if his logo would still be on top! Yep...stuck with it.

 

Since he already had a purchasing/selling history of 100%, he paid for the coin, got it…showed me the hairlines in the fields on the reverse and told me he learned a valuable lesson.

 

I’m glad he was willing to share this tale of woe with me…strategy greed will get your pockets turned inside out.

[supertooth]

zoins----An excellent post. And worthy of some of Bob's true stories. Let me first say that ----supertooth is my name and Walkers are my "GIANT GAME"----second is that I only 'snipe' usually [bid once at the end---win or loose].

 

I will assume that everyone knows their series of interest---or thinks that they do. My first story happened a few years ago. I spotted a 1919S Walker in what looked to be MS 63 condition---looked like an 'original' coin. It was among a whole series that the seller was breaking up. On Ebay, there are a group of what I would call 'real Walker pros'. All snipe. We sat there all week. The coin was bid to about a hundred bucks. Right up till the end it was still at the hundred buck level. Bob sat there thinking that I might get a beautiful coin for virtually nothing. But, being the fellow that I am, I decided to bid what I thought---at the time---the coin was worth. So, with just seconds remaining, I placed my over 4,000 dollar bid. Only to find out that I was third high bidder. I had lost to not one but two of my competators. The experience was mind altering for a little while. But, then I realized that all three of us had bid within a hundred bucks of one another. Then I was proud that we all knew exactly the same thing. My regret?? Sure, that I never got to see the coin in hand. To this day, I think that the coin was a diamond in the rough. I do not think that the seller ever had a clue as to what he actually had.

 

My second story happened last year. My Walker Registry Set is 'basically' finished. I had started buying the 'early' dates about 8 years ago now. I started with the hard years---as I knew the later years were available. The key here is to understand that I try to only buy 'truely original skinned' coins. Well, I needed the 1935 to 1947 coins to finish the Registry. For those of you who know the truth---probably 95% of the Walkers on Ebay----raw or slabbed---are not worth owning. And, again, as some of you know, the pictures on Ebay can be altered. And you virtually can NOT tell a dipped coin most of the time. Holdered coins are just a guess bassed on knowledge and instinct and having looked at hundreds of thousands of coin pictures. Then I saw them.

 

A seller had groupings of 5 coins---25 in all---pictures came on to me as definitely super OK 'original skinned' coins. I emailed the seller several times and gleaned enough information that told me that I was definitely 100% correct about the coins. I bought all 25. Got them at what I called 'a steal'. Others had not seen them. I was thrilled. Then, the seller put on 10 more coins. I near about cried with excitement. They were 'EXCEPTIONAL" and I then emailed the seller----found out more info. And realized the total truth about the coins. I had gotten, by knowledge and a little Irish luck, into a set of one time owner coins---all in MS high grade---individually picked out and placed into old Wayte Raymond holders at the time of issue. I had, from the seller, the provenance as to the owner's name etc. More info was gleaned from the seller by email. WOW!! Was I waiting for the week to go by---sweating out every day. Trying to figure out what to bid---see 5 coins were the 1937 and 1938 coins. The auction day arrived and, after 7+ years of hunting for the perfect coins, I was a nervous wreck. If I lost these coins, I knew that my wife and family would never hear the end of it. I would be miserable---and might not ever again have the opportunity at such a set----'raw on Ebay'. Well, with seconds left, I punched in the numbers----all 15,000 dollars worth of numbers. I won the first five coins from one of the best Walker buyers on Ebay. The fellow made me pay 3550 to get those five coins. Instantly, I was in heaven. I had both won----and had beaten out a truely formidable foe. And had paid what I called a "FAIR" price for the five coins. I also won the other 5 coins too.

 

While those ten were in transit from the seller---he put more coins up for sale. I emailed him. There was a 'second' set----in Whitman folders this time. Well, another super Walker buyer made me pay 4,000 for the second grouping of 5 coins from 1937--1938 years. This story could go on a lot further---but, the reality remains that I won over 50 high MS coins. They were better in hand than expected. The NT toning was outstanding on many of them. It was a set of a lifetime. I knew it---and I bid like there was NO TOMORROW. If I had been forced to pay the 15,000 grand, I would still have been happy---as these are exceptional coins IMHO. Tom B has seen and commented previously about these coins---as being original skinned etc. Another Walker expert on both boards spent over two hours just looking at the scanner pictures that I had sent to him. His comment was that I was "A LUCKY MAN". And, he knew the buying prices.

 

I will not burden you further. But just to say that every once in awhile, you MUST go for it if you KNOW that you are right. I knew that another similar chance might NEVER come along. Folks just don't understand how truely rare such coins are today. What few sets such as mine that do come along---usually NEVER see the normal marketplace---except maybe at a major auction. SOOOOO many of the so--called high graded Walkers have been dipped and overdipped today and are overgraded or ATed. And, 'original' early dates and mints are like hunting for needles in haystacks. So, for me to have been an underbidder this one time, WAS NOT AN OPTION. Hope that you folks do understand. Bob [supertooth]

[James_OldeTowne]

I hate to admit it, but when I'm the underbidder on a coin I really wanted, and I've driven up the competition far above what they expected to pay for it, I take some satisfaction from that. Sometimes, I suspect it means a dealer will get quite a bit less margin than he was expecting.

 

I also enjoy being the underbidder if it drives up the market a little on an issue for which I have competing coins to sell. In my mind at least, it means my coins may be worth a little more later on.

 

In general though, I don't like being the underbidder. It means I've missed out on a coin I would have enjoyed owning.

[cpm9ball]

Fantastic stories, Bob! There is only one thing I would have done differently regarding your second story if I had been in your shoes. If I had contacted the seller, as you did, I would have asked if he had other WLH's that he might be interested in selling outright rather than placing them at auction and paying fees. You may have been able to get them for slightly less, and he may have been very happy with the savings.

 

 

"World" - It is very hard to beat the snipers when the item in question is in big demand and there are multiple bidders. Most snipes are entered 3-5 seconds before the end of the auction, and if you are trying to beat them, you would have to have the timing down to the last second. It's not easy to do. The big drawback for the sniper is when someone has already entered a bid, and their maximum is less than one bidding increment below your snipe. I've seen irregularities in the bidding process from time to time, but most often you would lose.

 

Chris

[supertooth]

Chris----My second buddy, who also saw these coins in person, I did ask about the coins---as well as inquire about 'other' sets of coins that were to be sold. The seller was a personal friend of the 'original' owner. In fact, he was the collector's boss. He was selling the collection on Ebay---by contract with the gentleman's widow. Best part---he was an 'HONEST" seller. I found this out immediately on my first email to him. I have given him the finest feedback that ANY seller could possibly ask for. He, like the original owner of the coins, MUST be a true gentleman. The owner of the coins had NO coins above a 50 cent piece. No Morgans and NO gold.

 

A horror story that goes with my Walker story was this. The seller also had a totally original skinned set of Washington quarters. The whole set were GEM BU coins---all NT toned---and all had been in Wayte Raymond holders since purchased. I started to bid---actually had my son do it so that noone would know it was me bidding----won the first 5 coins. Then my son's computer froze on him while bidding on the next five coins. The same buyer bought several 5 coin lots. I thought that he was trying to preserve the whole set---as I had done with the Walkers---so I backed off and decided not to press the bids. Good guy Bob. When it came time to bid on the 1932--34 coins----which I had graded as MS 64--65--66 coins---depending on the coin, the gentleman did not bid. Turns out that one of my Walker pros---the guy whom I outbid on the 3550 dollar Walkers---was the winner. Ended up paying about 2,000 plus for coins that easily were worth 5--10,000. I emailed the seller---told him the story. Chris---he wrote back to inform me that a collector friend had offered over 4,000 for them---but, because of the deal with the widow, he could not accept the offer. He also informed me that both of us had contacted him---we were all sick that the dealer had won them at a steal price. Naturally, I am still kicking myself for this unfortunate blunder. And strangely, Dave, my son, is now a Washington quarter lover. Hope all you folks have a nice day. And, Chris, I have enjoyed your recent posts too. Bob [supertooth]

[cpm9ball]

Bob, once again I want to tell you how much I enjoyed getting to meet you and Tom last November. I may just be in the D.C. area again in June. If so, I would like to act as chauffeur, and we could make a day trip of scouting out some coin shops. I was just going through my dealer directory, and I found one that might be interesting if it isn't too far away..............Hank's Coins in Walkersville, MD. Sounds appropriate to me!

 

Chris

[Zoins]

My thanks to everyone who's replied to this thread. The personal experiences shared have been very useful to me, and I hope for others as well. There is a lot for me to think about but the overriding thought I have is that I need to do a lot more research and learning about some of the pieces/series I have been interested in. I'm not sure when I'll have enough information to comfortably start bidding a lot higher but until then I'll just be patient and bid what I'm comfortable with, win or lose. I'm thinking that even if my acquisition rate for these stays low, I'll get some enjoyment out of doing research and piecing together the background.

[supertooth]

zoins----What a wonderful attitude that you have!! My stories are told to help people. If I have helped anyone here on these boards, I am so very glad to do it.

 

One thing that came to my mind is to remind all of you to start SMALL. When I started to buy Walkers on Ebay---at the beginning of 1999---I was NOT buying thousands of dollars worth of coins. I was buying 'fine' and 'very fine' old school graded coins---with price tags in the 20 to 30 dollar range. I was finishing two complete sets that I had started as a kid in 1955. I learned the problems of Ebay----bad pictures---overgraded coins---CLEANED coins---and finally dipped coins etc. etc. But I was playing with only a SMALL amount of money at a time. It took me 2-3 years before I would spend more than a hundred bucks on a coin. Then, it took more time to understand the TPGS and how all of that worked. All the while I was improving my skills and constantly shaking my head about how things had changed in this hobby over the years. My surprises were many. Heck, I thought that I was quite the expert in 1999. Afterall, I was an old time collector. Had been through the ropes before---been to major shows---had auctioned thousands of dollars worth of gold coins before most of you guys were even born. But, I found out that I KNEW NOTHING----or at least very little. And after 8 years, I am STILL very much learning----each and every day. As a dentist, I was always proud of my work and my ability. As a Numismatist, I try to be very HUMBLE. Learning from ANYWHERE that I can find out about coins. To be a good coin collector you MUST put aside your pride----learn to be HUMBLE----and WATCH YOUR BACK. You guys and gals have a nice night. Chris, I will PM you shortly, my friend. Bob [supertooth]

[Beijim]

When you get to really know a particular series and the current prices at which its examples normally sell, you'll be amazed at the number of times you hit the other guy's bid dead on. As long as the other guy is rational, that is...

 

Beijim