Should certification have an expiration date?

[Zoins]

It seems that there are a number of silver coins that can deteriorate in a TPG holder. It's not a big deal if the value of the coin is low but in this thread across the street it seems to have happened to some high value Franklins and Kennedys. How many coins does this typically happen to? If it's a lot, should there be an expiration date on certification forcing either recertification or the certification to expire? If the coin hasn't deteriorated, people can just keep the coin in the slab with an expired insert. I know some people will hate this idea because it means more money for the TPGs but without it, it seems at least some coins will deteriorate leading to an increased number of overgraded coins. Over time, this may have an impact on the TPGs and their registry sets (in addition to the results of the crack out game).

[JJSingleton]

This is exactly why people buy coins in PCGS and NGC holders. It's all about the grade guarantee. But when it comes to the registry game, the label is more important than the coin. It is the value of the label that keeps those coins from being returned for the grade guarantee. Getting the money doesn't help with registry points. It makes no sense to me, but many registry players cherish the opportunity to purchase a pop top coin that has turned in the holder at a discount. After all, these score just as high as the coins that haven't turned. Some of these players are on an ego trip and know very little about coins. They honestly believe that if they have the highest numbers they have the finest collections regardless of true coin condition.

[cpm9ball]

NO!

 

Chris

[Zoins]

This is exactly why people buy coins in PCGS and NGC holders. It's all about the grade guarantee. But when it comes to the registry game, the label is more important than the coin. It is the value of the label that keeps those coins from being returned for the grade guarantee. Getting the money doesn't help with registry points. It makes no sense to me, but many registry players cherish the opportunity to purchase a pop top coin that has turned in the holder at a discount. After all, these score just as high as the coins that haven't turned. Some of these players are on an ego trip and know very little about coins. They honestly believe that if they have the highest numbers they have the finest collections regardless of true coin condition.

Maybe an expiration can be only related to value in the registry. This way the grade doesn't expire for the coin, but it does for those playing the registry game. If this is the case, it seems that more people will take advantage of the grade guarantee resulting in more accurate TPG grades over time.

[TomB]

I think it's a poor idea for the hobby, but a great idea for the TPGs to push to increase cash flow. Coins that turn are fairly rare and are almost always those pieces that were not properly neutralized by their then-owners prior to certification. Depending on collecting niche, one may greatly reduce the risk of buying one of these by becoming more educated.

[IGWT]

With respect to the NGC guarantee:

 

The NGC Guarantee does not apply to copper, bronze or copper nickel coins graded by NGC prior to April 1, 2000.

 

To the extent that the NGC Guarantee applies to copper, bronze, or copper nickel coins, the NGC Guarantee expires with respect to such coin(s) on the ten year anniversary of the date of encapsulation by NGC.

 

Link. It might be wise, in some cases, to submit coins subject to the limitations before expiration of the guarantee. It's easy enough to determine if the guarantee still applies to coins that you submitted yourself; but, for coins that you purchased already holdered, I'm not sure how you determine whether or not they are still covered by the guarantee.

 

My collection is almost exclusively Cu/Ni. I really don't care about the perceived difference in the grading standards between PCGS and NGC when I buy a coin. The difference in holders doesn't much matter to me either, and I don't participate in the registries. But the difference in the guarantee means that my good coins will eventually end up in PCGS slabs.

[PerryHall]

Don't copper coins in NGC slabs have an expiration date as far as grade guarantees go?

[BillJones]

NO!

 

We pay the TPGs for their opinions, and sometimes have to go thought considerable expense and trouble to get coins certified. If the holders had an expiration date, it would imply that grading standards change. While many of us think that grading standards have changed, it would still be very destructive to the hobby of that were put down formally in writing.

 

Coins “go bad” in the holder primarily for three reasons.

 

(1) Improper storage. – Coins need to be store in low humidity at constant temperatures.

 

(2) The coin have been screwed with and the chemicals that were used either were not neutralized properly, OR the process used was only a quick fix that is not permanent. An example of this is copper spots that are removed from gold coins that often return within a couple years.

 

(3) The coins are fragile items like red copper Proof pieces that can turn for no good reasons.

 

If a coin has a good patina on it, it will retain the same look for many, many years, certainly within a collector’s lifetime. Therefore the vast majority of classic coins that have been slabbed will retain their appearance and their value.

 

And yes I fully agree with the point that many registry collectors are more interested in the grading number than they are in the coin. Maybe that is why so many of them refuse to post pictures of the coins in their collections.

[BillJones]

But the difference in the guarantee means that my good coins will eventually end up in PCGS slabs.

 

I've seen enough evidence to convince me that that guarantee is not worth the paper it is written upon. It's a shame that you remove good coins from NGC holders, which helps to perpetuate the myth that PCGS is the superior service.

[123cents]

No, but I bit the grading services would go for it.

[copperman]

No, but I bit the grading services would go for it.

 

i agree

[LuvToCollect]

I don't think I like this idea.

[IGWT]

But the difference in the guarantee means that my good coins will eventually end up in PCGS slabs.

 

I've seen enough evidence to convince me that that guarantee is not worth the paper it is written upon. It's a shame that you remove good coins from NGC holders, which helps to perpetuate the myth that PCGS is the superior service.

 

Bill -- What is the "evidence . . . that the guarantee is not worth the paper it is written on"?

 

If NGC's grade guarantee on a coin is about to expire, and continuing the guarantee requires reholdering, why would a collector opt to reholder with NGC instead of crossing to PCGS given the difference in the guarantees? It's not about perpetuating some myth; it's about a consumer taking advantage of the better guarantee.

[PerryHall]

Don't copper coins in NGC slabs have an expiration date as far as grade guarantees go?

 

I just checked NGC's grade guarantee. Copper, bronze, and copper-nickel coins grades are only guaranteed for ten years. PCGS guarantee on these coins have no time limit.

[Zoins]

But the difference in the guarantee means that my good coins will eventually end up in PCGS slabs.

I've seen enough evidence to convince me that that guarantee is not worth the paper it is written upon. It's a shame that you remove good coins from NGC holders, which helps to perpetuate the myth that PCGS is the superior service.

Bill -- What is the "evidence . . . that the guarantee is not worth the paper it is written on"?

Oops, did Bill's response with examples just go poof?

[BillJones]

Oops, did Bill's response with examples just go poof?

 

Yes, I poofed it out of fear of retaliation.

 

I'll put it this way. In the past PCGS has not always been as quick as one might hope in settling claims about coins with problems that were missed or coins that went bad in the holder.

 

I would not cross my coins from NGC to PCGS based upon the assumption that their gurantee is stronger.

[gmarguli]

I'll put it this way. In the past PCGS has not always been as quick as one might hope in settling claims about coins with problems that were missed or coins that went bad in the holder.

 

That's because you're a dealer. Send it in as a collector and you'll have a much better chance of them making good. At least that's how I've noticed it.

[Zoins]

Oops, did Bill's response with examples just go poof?

Yes, I poofed it out of fear of retaliation.

This theme of retaliation and thread/post poofing seems uncomfortably (and unfortunately) Orwellian.

[BillJones]

I'll put it this way. In the past PCGS has not always been as quick as one might hope in settling claims about coins with problems that were missed or coins that went bad in the holder.

 

That's because you're a dealer. Send it in as a collector and you'll have a much better chance of them making good. At least that's how I've noticed it.

 

The people that were on my mind when I wrote that were collectors.

 

I've only sent one coin to PCGS. It was an Arkansas half dollar that when bad in the holder because it had been dipped and the residue of the dip darkened the coin. They dipped off the crud and re-holdered it free although I had to pay to postage to get it to them.

[Oldtrader3]

If you have a couple hundred coins that would have to be recertified, the cost alone would drive most collectors out of the hobby. It is a problem that some people dip coins which stain because they don't have enough knowledge to neutralize the acid in the dip solution. The biggest problem that I have had with slabbed coins have been with modern proofs that were mishandled this way.

 

Most classic Au/Cu, Cu/Ni or Ag/Cu coins that already have a patina will stay the same color in the newer hermetically sealed holders for many years. Although, gold coins minted before about 1896 may not be refined enough (<99.98% pure) or were not be alloyed with copper properly and may still develop copper spots.

 

The most serious problem that I have had is with RD cents that probably weren't handled or stored properly before they were encapsulated. However, I have other RD cents that have not turned in their holders in many years.

 

The expense of having to recertify my collection would be a show stopper!

[Houston Investor]

No - doesn't make any practical sense. The buyer, as owner of the coins assumes the responsibility of storing them, etc. If they go bad, well too bad so sad - maybe he should have turned them quicker.

 

Rare coin investment is an areana where he who has knowledge is king. If an investor is able to blow out a slab "that has gone bad" sight unseen, etc. for good money well then good for him. One guys slab that has gone bad may be another mans toned piece of art .