Why I'm Thankful for TPG's

[robec1347]

I know TPG's aren't perfect. They make mistakes. They sometimes overgrade. They sometimes undergrade. Sometimes they'll encapsulate an AT. And sometimes they'll encapsulate a coin that has been cleaned. But, unless you're educated in buying raw coins and really know what to look for, I'll take my chances with TPG's everytime.

 

I used to be trusting of just about everyone. That changed about 15 years ago when it seemed the phone lines were the sole property of coin dealers. One in particular sold me several Carson City dollars over a period of 3 years. Being trusting, apparently naive and uneducated in the field of "big business numismatics", I didn't find out till years later that I had been chewed up and spit out.

 

I know what to look for now. But do all the new collectors know? I hope so, but I don't think so. Do they know to look for hairlines? Do they know if a coin has been AT'd to hide something worse? I didn't. I don't think most of the new collectors do either. It should be mandatory for new collectors to belong to sites like this. I wish I had.

 

I have three examples of my mistakes. All three are now in NCS details holders due to Improper Cleaning. Something I would have never looked for before.

 

The first one was bought as an AU 53: It details at XF.

 

The second one was bought as "Borderline"(they all loved this term) Uncirculated. It detailed at AU.

 

The third (but unfortunately not the last) was bought as MS65. It detailed as Unc.

 

So while not perfect, I still trust them. You won't hear me say anything unkind about NGC or PCGS. To me they do have their place.

[SkyMan]

So while not perfect, I still trust them. You won't hear me say anything unkind about NGC or PCGS. To me they do have their place.

 

I agree with that statement.

[123cents]

I, for one, am glad the top tier grading services such as NGC and PCGS are around.

[Bruceswar]

Look at the bright side, you bought CC's instead of O,S, and P common dates! You will still have something to sell when it comes time.

[robec1347]

Look at the bright side, you bought CC's instead of O,S, and P common dates! You will still have something to sell when it comes time.

 

That does soften the blow. Plus they were purchased with 1990 dollars.

[James_OldeTowne]

There are two ways to look at it. In the first place, I agree with you. If you don't enough and the right experience, stick to certified coins, especially in the case of Morgans, etc. There's a plentiful supply of certified coins, and you might as well get the extra benefit of certification.

 

On the other hand, these coins certified, even at the net-grades, will cost you a lot more than those raw coins did way back then. I suspect that for the price you paid for them fifteen years ago, you will do very well today in trying to get your money back out of them.

 

When all is said and done, I prefer these Morgans in their certified state. It's great peace of mind both buying and sellilng. But considering the extra $30 per coin that equates to - and that the huge majority of Morgans are not worth the cost of certifying - I still end up doing the majority of my business - even with Morgans - in un-certified coins.

[robec1347]

I still end up doing the majority of my business - even with Morgans - in un-certified coins.

I wish you were the one to call me 15 years ago instead of one of those carpet bagger coin dealers. You are right is saying I should come out ok money wise on these. As Bruce said, at least they are CC's.

[JRocco]

Hey robec1347 ,

Let me ask you a question---

Do you think that today, 15 years later, you feel comfortable buying raw coins in the series that you collect?

Do you know how to grade that series (wear vs, strike) and how to tell a dipped coin? A cleaned coin? An artificially toned coin in your series?

 

If you (or anyone) can't answer yes to those questions than you should stick to slabbed coins. They offer a degree of protection. While they may occasionally over or undergrade, or even miss an AT coin once in a while-they are overall OK.

You will, of course, pay more for their opinions and your (or anyone's) lack of confidence in your own grading/authenticating skills will close out a significant section of the hobby---raw coins for sale.

 

Collect at your skill and comfort level and your hobby will always be fun---especially on a cold winter day

 

Good luck to you in future buying.

[robec1347]

Hey robec1347 ,

Let me ask you a question---

Do you think that today, 15 years later, you feel comfortable buying raw coins in the series that you collect?

Do you know how to grade that series (wear vs, strike) and how to tell a dipped coin? A cleaned coin? An artificially toned coin in your series?

 

If you (or anyone) can't answer yes to those questions than you should stick to slabbed coins. They offer a degree of protection. While they may occasionally over or undergrade, or even miss an AT coin once in a while-they are overall OK.

You will, of course, pay more for their opinions and your (or anyone's) lack of confidence in your own grading/authenticating skills will close out a significant section of the hobby---raw coins for sale.

 

Collect at your skill and comfort level and your hobby will always be fun---especially on a cold winter day

 

Good luck to you in future buying.

True it's been 15 years since the purchase, but it's only been 3 years since discovering my ignorance. Two of those years, I bought nothing unless it was certified. I did nothing to improve my knowledge in coins. I didn't realize how much there was to learn and how complicated coin collecting was until I joined these boards. While I've learned a lot (or at least became aware certain aspects of the hobby) since I've been here, there is still a *spoon* load of stuff I have to learn.

 

My skills have improved since my discovery. I still don't feel completely confident ....

yet, but it will come. There is a whole new world out there that I knew nothing about. But I plan on learning and becoming a part of it. And that includes looking into raw coins again. Only this time with a more educated eye.

[MikeInFL]

I agree there are many reasons to be thankful for TPGs. Many were outlined in the OP's and respondant's thoughts above.

 

However, here are a few reasons why I dislike TPGs:

 

1) They deceive the novice coin collector into thinking that they are buying accurately graded, problem-free coins.

 

2) The provide an artificial crutch in the development of grading skills.

 

3) They enable the crackout game, the dip-for-higher-grade game, and validate the works of the coin doctors.

 

4) Over time, they result in an ever-increasing number of "coffin slabs" -- overgraded material and problem coins that will never be broken out for fear of a downgrade/bodybag that become a "minefield" for the novice cool-aid drinker.

 

5) Gradeflation.

 

That's not to say that the coin market has not benefited from the emergence of TPGs, but in so doing they have introduced quite a few drawbacks that the astute collector would be wise to realize, and I wonder if today's incarnation of TPGs really do solve more problems than they create....Mike

[Oldtrader3]

I have a Signaure set on this site that contains (3) better date coins bought raw from major dealers (all of whom sell quality merchandise). Buying raw coins sight-unseen is always(!) a risk, even if you can grade.

[Houston Investor]

You got ripped. I can't see how anyone would buy these on a sight seen basis - it is obvious they have been rather improperly cleaned.

 

Don't buy sight unseen - even slabbed coins.

[SuperDave]

I agree there are many reasons to be thankful for TPGs. Many were outlined in the OP's and respondant's thoughts above.

 

However, here are a few reasons why I dislike TPGs:

 

1) They deceive the novice coin collector into thinking that they are buying accurately graded, problem-free coins.

 

2) The provide an artificial crutch in the development of grading skills.

 

3) They enable the crackout game, the dip-for-higher-grade game, and validate the works of the coin doctors.

 

4) Over time, they result in an ever-increasing number of "coffin slabs" -- overgraded material and problem coins that will never be broken out for fear of a downgrade/bodybag that become a "minefield" for the novice cool-aid drinker.

 

5) Gradeflation.

 

That's not to say that the coin market has not benefited from the emergence of TPGs, but in so doing they have introduced quite a few drawbacks that the astute collector would be wise to realize, and I wonder if today's incarnation of TPGs really do solve more problems than they create....Mike

 

Here was my personal lesson about trusting a TPG (same coin in both pics):

 

 

 

Mea culpa, of course, but I'm far less likely to trust any slab in the future. Probably the best $130 lesson I ever learned.

[robec1347]

So far I haven't had any bad experience with TPG's. But I can see where others have. I think the bottom line and the solution to this problem is educating yourself. That's what I'll be doing and that's why I'm here.

[JRocco]

This one is in top plastic......

[robec1347]

Maybe my subject title should have been "Why I'm Thankful I don't have any problem TPG coins". I see your point. Maybe I've been lucky on that aspect of it. I wasn't quite so lucky on the raw aspect. Although I have had some success in that sector. I'll just have to keep a better look out. And know what I'm looking for.

[BillJones]

You won't hear me say anything unkind about NGC or PCGS. To me they do have their place.

 

They have their place, but part of their place is to listen to their customers, especially their customers who have had a lot of experience. That is about the only way that they can be kept in line. I agree totally with what MikeinFL wrote.

 

The trouble with the guys across the street is that they have gotten so arrogant that they don't think they need to listen to ANYONE. Even their member dealers can get the boot of they have a valid point, but complain much at all.

[SuperDave]

This one is in top plastic......

 

Heh. We went back and forth about that one, elsewhere, and I've come around to your way of thinking about it.

[Conder101]

I used to be trusting of just about everyone. That changed about 15 years ago when it seemed the phone lines were the sole property of coin dealers. One in particular sold me several Carson City dollars over a period of 3 years. Being trusting, apparently naive and uneducated in the field of "big business numismatics", I didn't find out till years later that I had been chewed up and spit out.

Newsflash. Even WITH slabs you'd have gotten chewed up and spit out. Only difference would be that you would have sunk a LOT more money into the scam than you did. See today's home shopping programs. Many of the coins they sell are slabbed and they still take a great many people for two to three times what the coins are worth. Slabs haven't protected them, because they are the same thing you were all those years ago, trusting, naive, and uneducated.

 

The key to not getting ripped off in coins is education not slabs. An uneducated collector can get ripped off badly buying raw coins. Slabs might be a little better, but the false sense of security they project can lure the uneducated into sinking much more in questionable coin deals than he would have buying raw coins potentially making his loss even worse.

 

But an educated collector can usually safely buy raw or slabbed coins. He understands grading, markets and his various series that he collects in depth. Often he will know more about the coins being offered to him than the seller does. Someone like that is much harder to rip off.

[robec1347]

I used to be trusting of just about everyone. That changed about 15 years ago when it seemed the phone lines were the sole property of coin dealers. One in particular sold me several Carson City dollars over a period of 3 years. Being trusting, apparently naive and uneducated in the field of "big business numismatics", I didn't find out till years later that I had been chewed up and spit out.

Newsflash. Even WITH slabs you'd have gotten chewed up and spit out. Only difference would be that you would have sunk a LOT more money into the scam than you did. See today's home shopping programs. Many of the coins they sell are slabbed and they still take a great many people for two to three times what the coins are worth. Slabs haven't protected them, because they are the same thing you were all those years ago, trusting, naive, and uneducated.

 

The key to not getting ripped off in coins is education not slabs. An uneducated collector can get ripped off badly buying raw coins. Slabs might be a little better, but the false sense of security they project can lure the uneducated into sinking much more in questionable coin deals than he would have buying raw coins potentially making his loss even worse.

 

But an educated collector can usually safely buy raw or slabbed coins. He understands grading, markets and his various series that he collects in depth. Often he will know more about the coins being offered to him than the seller does. Someone like that is much harder to rip off.

That might have been a newsflash a few years ago, but its all clear to me now. As I mentioned a couple of times in this thread, education is the answer and that is what I will be working on.

[jom]

As I mentioned a couple of times in this thread, education is the answer and that is what I will be working on.

 

You're absolutely correct. And part of that education would be to re-read Conder's post. For anyone even remotely new to this ought to understand what he's trying to say. MOST of us should...especially when you have a coin you want to buy and your are about to write that check to buy it! God knows I've made many mistakes over the years...

 

jom

[robec1347]

As I mentioned a couple of times in this thread, education is the answer and that is what I will be working on.

 

You're absolutely correct. And part of that education would be to re-read Conder's post. For anyone even remotely new to this ought to understand what he's trying to say. MOST of us should...especially when you have a coin you want to buy and your are about to write that check to buy it! God knows I've made many mistakes over the years...

 

jom

[James_OldeTowne]

I agree there are many reasons to be thankful for TPGs. Many were outlined in the OP's and respondant's thoughts above.

 

However, here are a few reasons why I dislike TPGs:

 

1) They deceive the novice coin collector into thinking that they are buying accurately graded, problem-free coins.

 

2) The provide an artificial crutch in the development of grading skills.

 

3) They enable the crackout game, the dip-for-higher-grade game, and validate the works of the coin doctors.

 

4) Over time, they result in an ever-increasing number of "coffin slabs" -- overgraded material and problem coins that will never be broken out for fear of a downgrade/bodybag that become a "minefield" for the novice cool-aid drinker.

 

5) Gradeflation.

 

That's not to say that the coin market has not benefited from the emergence of TPGs, but in so doing they have introduced quite a few drawbacks that the astute collector would be wise to realize, and I wonder if today's incarnation of TPGs really do solve more problems than they create....Mike

Mike, I agree with you on all these points, but I think one's perspective depends on which part of the numismatic arena you are in. I think the problems you state are very true of the speculative aspect of things, and it's too bad that money is such a powerful force that those folks who's greed lies at the root cause of these problems are so, well, greedy. On the other hand, for the casual collector, certification is invaluable.

 

Of course, there are those who would say that casual collectors shouldn't collect coins - or at least certainly shouldn't buy expensive coins.

 

It's too bad that "politics" plays such a large role in certification. In an ideal world, a coin would be graded the same all the time. But we all know there are outside influences that keep this from happening.