Let's discuss the "Third Side"

[Amanda]

Everyone says the third side, or the edge, is important. I would agree.

 

My favorite edges are the lettered ones, like on Capped Bust Half Dollars and other early coins.

 

 

Here is the edge of my 1827 Half.

 

I think it's too bad that most holders make it difficult to see the edge. I do like the new NGC holders that I have seen some Saints in where you can read most of the edge.

 

I know that on older coins (open collar strikes) like my Capped Bust Half, the lettered edge was applied by a Castaing machine that the planchets were run through prior to striking.

 

How are letters applied to close collar coins, like the Saint Gaudens and the new presidential dollars? I have read pieces that mention sectioned dies for the edge.

 

Please share what you know about edges of all kinds, and any pictures you may have!

 

Thanks!

 

-Amanda

[cpm9ball]

As far as the new Presidential $'s are concerned, the collar of the coining chamber will become a third die for the lettering on the edge. The application would be similar to that used for a reeded edge. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same technique that was used in the 19th century.

 

Chris

[IGWT]

As far as the new Presidential $'s are concerned, the collar of the coining chamber will become a third die for the lettering on the edge. The application would be similar to that used for a reeded edge. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the same technique that was used in the 19th century.

 

Chris

 

The lettered edges of the 19th century were applied with a castaing maching before the planchets went to the press. The Mint stopped producing lettered edges in the 1830s. Edge lettering came back in 1907 with the Saint-Gaudens $20, and a three-segment collar was used in that case.

 

Edited to add: Of course, none of this really matters, because Shield 5c have a plain edge.

[cpm9ball]

Edited to add: Of course, none of this really matters, because Shield 5c have a plain edge.

 

Yes, that was a special request that Lou submitted to the Mint back in 1865.

 

Chris

[Dcoin]

I love the idea of bringing back the lettered edge. It adds an antique feel to the new $… I wonder how the TPG’s will grade the edges. Is it true that they are developing special holders so collectors can examine the edges?

 

Dcoin

[JRocco]

Great thread Amanda.

The third side of the coin is the least looked at part of the coin. You are right in that you can't even see it in just about all the slabbed coins. I love the varieties also, from doubled to tripled lettering, botched lettering, rolled over metal, missing letters strange markings.....Here are a couple of mine I have pics of.

[Cladiator]

Good idea for a thread.

 

Illustrated below is my set piece of the 1829 LM18/V1 CBH10¢ die marriage in XF. I've yet to locate one of the elusive custom made half dime edge mirrors so these photos were produced with a mirror cone out of a small flashlight.

 

You can plainly see the edge of the half dime in a continuous 360 degree circle around the coin. This particular coin was struck by Collar #3 and has a total of 95 reeds.

 

The CBH10¢ series used a total of 11 Edge Collars during the 9 year run of the series. They ranged from a low of 91 reeds (Collar #1 which struck the 1829 LM1-LM5) to a high of 98 reeds (Collar #9 which struck the 1836 LM5-LM7).

 

[TomB]

Terrific picture, Cladiator, and my first impression was "He found an edge mirror!" Too bad you don't have one yet, but you still have a great setup for this side.

[Amanda]

Cool errors, JRocco.

 

Cladiator, that is a VERY neat way to show the edge! Thanks for sharing!

 

Now I need to find a small flashlight I can scavenge for parts.

 

-Amanda

[Zoins]

Great thread and pics!

 

Is there a good tutorial on how to do an image like Cladiator's?

 

I'm hoping the Presidential dollar series will encourage all the TPGs to come up with more innovative holders for viewing the edge.

[Cladiator]

Here's an interesting illustration I dug up. It doesn't go into too much detail but it does give you some kind of idea of how the collars worked.

 

[Cladiator]

Here's another really fun way to display the 3rd side of your coins.

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

 

Another reason to have a few raw coins on hand...not only to touch and hold history in your hand, but to be able to flip it on end and roll it gently to read the inscription incused into the edges.

 

During the circulation period of that era, many early half dollars were filed unscrupulously on the edges to remove a small amount of silver from each coin as it passed from hand to hand.

 

As I understand, the castaing machines were cranked by hand (where the planchet is rolled horizontally with a great amount of pressure along a straight edge lettering die) until demand of coinage proved this method to be to slow.

 

Lettered edges fell by the wayside as did hand adjusting planchets at the Mint to meet specific weight tolerances.

 

Examples of lettered edges will be a nice addition to the Presidential Dollars and look forward to seeing one in hand.

[AegisIII]

Here's my 1795 Talbot, Alum & Lee token. Unfortunately, this is the only edge photo I have, as I have normally scanned my coins rather than taking photos.

 

[DC Dawg]

Here's an interesting illustration I dug up. It doesn't go into too much detail but it does give you some kind of idea of how the collars worked.

 

That's a great image of the process. Where did you find it?

 

Scott

[jtryka]

Here is an image of the third side to one of my favorite coins:

 

 

Of course the lettering isn't incuse, but you can see one of the lines where the segmented collar came together.

[Cladiator]

That's a great image of the process. Where did you find it?

I don't rightly remember now. A long time ago I did some searching on the net for images of minting machinery and came up with that one. Found one of an old screw press too if memory serves.

[Conder101]

A bit of a correction on Cladinator's image. It says at the bottom that they edge collar was introduced in the 1830's. It has now been shown that the collar imparting the reeded edge on US coins dates back to 1795.

 

It was noted that the reeded edge coins never showed errors in the reeding similar to the overlaps or offset edges like those seen on the lettered edge coins. (An offset reeded edge would show a blank area with no reeding. An overlap would show as blundered reeds because the reeds on one edge die did not exactly match the reeds on the other edge die. They might show doubling because the spacing of the reeds on the edge dies were different or merely an area where the reeds are heavier because they have been impressed twice in just that one area.) And some edges that had unusual feature always showed those features in the same position relative to the obv and rev designs. So studies were made of the early coins and it was discovered that on off-center coins the edges were not reeded! Clear evidence that the reeding must have been applied during the strike and not by Castaining machine to the planchets.

 

There are two possible ways they could make the President dollars. One is the segmented collar, and the other could have the edge applied by the edge milling machine. Great Britain uses the second method on the round pounds. On the pounds the planchet has the incuse inscription, and then it is struck in a reeded collar. The reeded collar allows for some expansion room so that the inscription is not crushed, and you get a coin with both a reeded AND lettered edge. If the dollar coins have the inscription applied during milling they too would have to be struck in a reeded collar. Striking in a plain collar would crush and wipe out most of the inscription. I have a couple of Conder tokens that were struck on lettered edge planchets in plain collars and the inscription has been almost totally been wiped out.

[Cladiator]

How are the Morgan Dollar "RailRoad Track" errors created? It's where only one side of the edge is reeded and the other side is completely smooth.

[Amanda]

Great information and pictures, thanks!

 

-Amanda

[texasrichard]

Dang, I just realized I don't have any pictures of the edge of any of my coins. Time to break out the camera. Great thread Amanda. Cladiator, great pictures.

[Quizno-migration]

I understand that without data gleaned from study of the edge, determining an accurate emission order for capped bust half dimes would have been nearly impossible. Is this true, Cladiator?

[MikeKing]

what a great thread!

[Conder101]

The railroad rim is caused by the collar getting jammed to the reverse die.

 

In you picture you notice there is a cam below the reverse die with causes it to rise up after the strike so the feed fingers can push the struck coin aside and deliver the next planchet. Sometimes the collar will get stuck to the reverse die as it retracts and the collar is pulled down with it. (The collar is mounted on springs so it can give some in case it is struck by the obverse die.) When that happens the next planchet does not drop completely down into the coining chamber (as shown in the first image of your picture)

 

So now the planchet only has the lower half in the collar and when it is struck that lower half is forced against the collar and gets the reeded edge. The upper half is not restrained and spreads out slightly on TOP of the collar staying blank. If you compare a railroad rim coin with a normal coin you will find that it is slightly larger in diameter and the larger diameter is on the blank edge side.

[Cladiator]

I understand that without data gleaned from study of the edge, determining an accurate emission order for capped bust half dimes would have been nearly impossible. Is this true, Cladiator?

I do believe you are correct sir that the edge played a pivotal part in the emission order. I don't remember the details exactly though, might you?

[Quizno-migration]

I understand that without data gleaned from study of the edge, determining an accurate emission order for capped bust half dimes would have been nearly impossible. Is this true, Cladiator?

I do believe you are correct sir that the edge played a pivotal part in the emission order. I don't remember the details exactly though, might you?

 

I think Mark Smith had a role in the determination, didn't he?

[MikeKing]

posted before. Now that I've seen some of the other photos, I wish I had spent more time on the edge of this 1809 xxxx, alas, it is now entombed in plastic

[Cladiator]

alas, it is now entombed in plastic

Mike, there's a solution to that problem ya know

[TomB]

An excellent article on emission sequence determination using edge characteristics for early half dollars can be found in America's Silver Coinage 1794-1891 of the Coinage of the Americas Conference series published by the ANS in 1987. Ivan Leaman and Donnald Gunnet wrote Edges and Die Sequences on Early Half Dollars in this volume. This is also the volume that Russell Logan wrote The Third Die: A Different Look where he illustrated his custom edge mirror apparatus and included many images of edges.

[Mirrored Morgan]

I think it's too bad that most holders make it difficult to see the edge. I do like the new NGC holders that I have seen some Saints in where you can read most of the edge.

 

NGC is on the cutting edge with their holders