It's like PCGS is scrambling to hide evidence or something...

[James_OldeTowne]

In the last fifteen minutes, I've just read two "support CoinGuy1" threads across the street. I'm not kidding, in the last three minutes, both have been zapped! What the heck are they doing over there?

[James_OldeTowne]

Never mind, just read the following:

 

Thread Title New Forum Rules

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:27 PM

Posted By: homerunhall (Collector)

 

We just had a one hour management meeting in which we discussed whether to continue to have a PCGS message board. We have had a lot of complaints from our collectors and dealers, both of whom buy and sell PCGS graded coins, about allowing PCGS bashing on our boards. And we also don't like the bashing...especially since it is often anonymous, meanspirited, and just flat out lies. Our choices were to close the boards down...or to moderate the boards more tightly.

 

Several of us, including yours truly, were in favor of just shutting down the boards. They are a cost of money and time to maintain and frankly, they don't seem to generate any significant revenue. On the other hand, we see our job as helping collectors and dealers with coin grading (PCGS), transaction opportunities (CCE Collectors Corner), and essential information (PCGS price guide and Pop Report.) The message boards, when they are dedicated to sharing information about coins and the coin market, are a source of useful information for our community of PCGS collectors and PCGS dealers.

 

So for now, we have decided to leave the message boards up...with a few changes...

 

First...three rules...

 

1. The PCGS message board is for talking about and sharing information about coins, including info about the market and collecting and collectors. If you want to talk about sports, politics, or other non-numismatic topics, please go somewhere else.

 

2. No profanity...there are young numismatists that are on our boards. If you can't watch your language, you will be banned from the boards.

 

3. No PCGS bashing of any kind. If you want to rag on us, go somewhere else. If you have a customer service problem, call customer service. If you have a suggestion, email PCGS President Ron Guth. Any threads that bash PCGS in any way will be deleted and anyone who bashes PCGS will be banned from furhter use of our message boards...and no warning will be given.

 

Second...were looking for moderators to help us keep this message board open. We are asking our board members to nominate people they feel they would trust to do a good job as a PCGS message board moderator. Please PM Carol J if you have any nominations.

 

We hope we can continue to provide the PCGS message boards as a place for collectors and dealers to meet and exchange useful numismatic information...but frankly...it's up to you.

 

David Hall

 

 

 

12/07/2006 17:28:46|M

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:31 PM

Posted By: mozeppa (Master Collector)

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:31 PM

Posted By: Craton (Government Cheese)

These new rules suck *spoon*!

 

-------------------------

Jason Craton --- WINS #5

 

MY EBAY AUCTIONS

 

2 DAMMIT BOY!!! awards.

Recipient of the first ever BOTD award! 2-17-05

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:32 PM

Posted By: dizzyfoxx (Expert Collector)

A very fair and reasonable set of guidelines.

 

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"If you're considering whether or not to buy that special coin, life's too short- "

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:33 PM

Posted By: billboat (Collector)

I value these Boards and feel that your rules are reasonable. I, for one, will abide by them. Thanks for not shutting down the Boards.

 

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I like it here!

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:34 PM

Posted By: Craton (Government Cheese)

Talk about PCGS only as long as it's praise...........

 

-------------------------

Jason Craton --- WINS #5

 

MY EBAY AUCTIONS

 

2 DAMMIT BOY!!! awards.

Recipient of the first ever BOTD award! 2-17-05

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:34 PM

Posted By: LeeG (Master Collector)

Thanks David for allowing the boards to stay as a place to learn and talk coins. Appreciate posting some rules to follow.

 

-------------------------

Lee

AOCS (AW) USN (Ret)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:34 PM

Posted By: DUIGUY (Expert Collector)

 

 

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OF ALL THE THINGS I LOST , I MISS MY MIND THE MOST !!

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:35 PM

Posted By: DarkStar (Member)

Can we have Coinguy1 back, please?

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:35 PM

Posted By: dizzyfoxx (Expert Collector)

 

 

<< Can we have Coinguy1 back, please? >>

 

 

 

 

 

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"If you're considering whether or not to buy that special coin, life's too short- "

 

 

 

 

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Date Posted: Dec/07/2006 5:36 PM

Posted By: Bochiman (Choose Your Title)

I'd agree there needs to be more moderation.

There is a lot to learn about coins from people here, whether or not they are PCGS holdered.

 

-------------------------

MIA:

 

My ebay items: SAE and AGE 20th Annv Sets

[Zoins]

The "support CoinGuy1" threads didn't even seem to talk about legal issues and just said CoinGuy1 was an upstanding guy and great contributor. I can only assume they view "support CoinGuy1" as "bashing PCGS". Crazy.... Hmm, that's probably considered PCGS bashing - better not say that there

[Doogy]

Strong arm tactics, plain and simple. Hall was kookoo to even consider shutting down those boards. many regulars would flock to NGC for grading as a sign of protest. he tries to talk tough, but he relies on those forum members to keep his shareholders happy

[Scavenger]

The Moderator job sounds pretty easy, all you have to do is delete what you dont want to deal with. Reminds me of that television commercial with the big red EASY button.

[mrearlygold]

The lawsuit is serious business and it's going to cost a lot of money. A lot of people talk *spoon* since they have nothing to lose, and many don't even divulge their identities and THINK they have nothing to lose.

 

If I had a forum, was being sued and saw someone take a position against me in any way, I wouldn't threaten people or play games, I'd shut the thing down and be done with it.

[kryptonitecomics]

I am sorry......but what's happening over there is a travesty....and I have posted over there just about as long as anyone.....I was on the other boards before they swithced over. I have nothing against the posters over there.....it's certainly there choice to stick up for PCGS in any form or fashion they want......but this whole situation just makes me sick

[JJSingleton]

The lawsuit is serious business and it's going to cost a lot of money. A lot of people talk *spoon* since they have nothing to lose, and many don't even divulge their identities and THINK they have nothing to lose.

 

If I had a forum, was being sued and saw someone take a position against me in any way, I wouldn't threaten people or play games, I'd shut the thing down and be done with it.

Tom, I don't disagree. However, PCGS was once again a day late and a dollar short. The day the lawsuit was filed they should have posted to the effect:

 

"Due to potential litigation issues surrounding the First Strike program, no discussion on the topic will be allowed on the forum. Any posts referencing the topic will be immediately deleted and the offending member will be banned. Thank you"

 

In business it is always better to be proactive, than reactive. That's good business. What we are seeing currently ATS speaks volumes to the contrary.

 

edited: left a word out.

[ldhair]

It really is a sad situation.

There will be no winners in this whole deal.

Both boards are important to me.

[goose3]

Hall being his usual arrogant self. I wonder if he'll take that attitude if/when the first strike fiasco goes to trial.

 

Instead of letting people voice complaints and using it to his benefit to address and correct them.....let's silence people and ban them if they say anything bad about us.

[Doogy]

 

If I had a forum, was being sued and saw someone take a position against me in any way, I wouldn't threaten people or play games, I'd shut the thing down and be done with it.

 

yeah, they could lose the lawsuit and with it, and nice chunk of change. They could also stifle the chatter by shutting down the forum and probably lose an even bigger chunk of change by PCGS regulars starting to submit to NGC instead. One way or another, PCGS could get screwed in the end due to their greedy marketing and strong arm tactics.

[IGWT]

Somewhere, someplace, a man named Codder is having a good laugh. The PCGS message boards provided fair notice that First Strike was a potential liability. The company's leadership fails to see that the message boards are a solution, not the problem.

 

Oh, and in case HRH is reading these boards, I'll give a bit of free advice: The new federal rules of civil procedure (effective last week) create an affirmative obligation to preserve all electronic records that are potentially relevant to anticipated litigation.

[pendragon1998]

I said it before, I'll say it again. They're hurting themselves with this heavy-handed policy. I completely disagree with his statement that "frankly, (the boards) don't seem to generate any significant revenue." The PCGS and NGC boards get a lot of beginners into serious collecting and keep a lot of people interested in it. I've made a number of purchases of graded coins since I started back into collecting, and a lot of them were a direct result of the interaction I've had with these message boards. I've never been more turned off to a service than I have been towards PCGS after this fiasco. I'll likely minimize my dealings with the company in the future. If I'm going to submit any coins for grading, I predict that I won't be going there - and not as a result of what Mark wrote, but because of the things PCGS did in response to it.

 

And to answer the number of people who state things like, "if I was a dinner guest at someone's house, I wouldn't bash them," I would say that while I wouldn't bash my host, I would feel free to disagree with him in a civil manner and to have a heatfelt discussion with him. If he kept cutting me off and finally told me to shut up when I disagreed with him, then threw my friends out one by one as they strongly protested it, I would simply leave and never eat with him again. If I previously did business with him, that would stop. I'd go to his neighbor's house for dinner, where I was treated with respect and allowed to respectfully speak my mind, even when I didn't agree with him. I'd do business with the friendly person who offered an equivalent product and gave me better treatment while we interacted.

 

PCGS just cut off their nose to spite their face. There were better ways to handle this if the lawsuit was an issue. They're going to lose business over this, I suspect.

[gmarguli]

3. No PCGS bashing of any kind. If you want to rag on us, go somewhere else. If you have a customer service problem, call customer service. If you have a suggestion, email PCGS President Ron Guth. Any threads that bash PCGS in any way will be deleted and anyone who bashes PCGS will be banned from furhter use of our message boards...and no warning will be given.

 

 

 

What an *spoon*-wipe david hall is. Customer Service is a major problem with PCGS. Call 5 times and ask the same question and you'll get 5 different answers.

[Brian Hartman-migration]

The whole thing is very disheartening. I think the management ATS really missed the boat on this. It's their right to moderate the board and control the discussion if they want to, but why create so much ill will? I don't get it...

[jgrinz]

Just captured that Laughing Smiley - Its great

Hope its not trademarked I might get sued

[thebeav]

Strong arm tactics, plain and simple. Hall was kookoo to even consider shutting down those boards. many regulars would flock to NGC for grading as a sign of protest. he tries to talk tough, but he relies on those forum members to keep his shareholders happy

Exactly !!

The funniest thing is, the same people that bash DH are now praising him as though he's the Wizard of Oz or some such thing......7 pages worth so far.....It's hillarious....

[Scavenger]

Yes, all the suction going on now is really pathetic.

[MAULEMALL]

Strong arm tactics, plain and simple. Hall was kookoo to even consider shutting down those boards. many regulars would flock to NGC for grading as a sign of protest. he tries to talk tough, but he relies on those forum members to keep his shareholders happy

Exactly !!

The funniest thing is, the same people that bash DH are now praising him as though he's the Wizard of Oz or some such thing......7 pages worth so far.....It's hillarious....

Wow,,I just read thru all that Butt Kissin BS,,,Pretty sad actually...I wonder if SM1 still has his own spot on Big daves buttox..

[LuvToCollect]

I am saddened that the post across the street appeared so tranaparently self serving. I read thier desire to allow a place of dialogue for thier folks but somehow it just didn't ring true to me.

I appreciate the participation from the new folks across the street and look forward to learning from them.

My father always told me that you do the right thing, even if it isn't to your advantage,

because it's just the right thing to do. Intimidation somehow was my impression of the post.

Although we sometimes have had lively debates over here on our side, I appreciate our moderators for moderating and not dictating.

[jgrinz]

hahah I just read all that KISS *spoon* ... Thay are calling all the PCGS movers to here "Trash" to put it mildly.

 

However they were nice enough to delete the bashing words of current posters there immediately after the new rules and They are also the same posters PRAISING MR Hall for his kindness to keep the board open. Isn't that the definition of " Hypocracy "

 

anyway

 

A new Fact to me is that these BOARDS DO NOT " seem to generate any significant revenue " Is he kidding ... I would like to see COINAGE SOLD/REVENUE PRE and POST "the board" - These boards AND thier Registries create "HYPE" Create a " NEED" Create a "WANT" Create a "Desire" for this expensive plastic. How can he really say that ...

 

Unbelieveable

[DC Dawg]

Look... if PCGS does not want someone to bash them on their own boards, then that is their right. It's their system, taking up their time and money, they have every right to make the rules. If people do not like the rules, don't read/post/participate.

 

PCGS/Collector's Universe is a commercial organization and has the same right to use their assets in a manner they see fit as any company, including NGC/Collector's Society. If they want to protect their name, products, whatever to generate a market for people to buy coins in their plastic so they can continue to grade coins and make money, that's their right.

 

Do you think that sitting here, "across the street," and throwing insults at PCGS will change them and the way they do business? Sorry... it won't! The only way to change the way PCGS or any TPGS (including NGC) does business is not to do business with them. Don't send your coins there to be graded by them. Don't buy coins in their holders. Just stop doing business with them!

 

Otherwise, it is not going to help... except to allow you to vent into cyberspace, making it an electronic fingerprint that will be searched for and read sometime in the future when someone is trying to find information about you.

 

I have nothing against PCGC, NGC, ANACS, or any of the other TPGS, so I will continue to do business with them as I have in the past--which is minimally because I prefer raw coins anyway!!

 

Scott

[James_OldeTowne]

OK, this may be a stupid question, but I thought Ron Guth was in charge over there? So why is "FoulBallHall" the one doing all the talking ?

 

Anyhow, I guess it doesn't matter much to me, but the frantic "slash and burn" tactics to remove posts that certain people just don't "like" are certainly entertaining. I wish PCGS the best - I really do - but the wild-eyed antics going on over there sure make me appreciate the NGC boards that much more.

[jgrinz]

I just noticed that RON GUTH's Picture is not on the Main Screen anymore

Was he demoted

[cpm9ball]

I just noticed that RON GUTH's Picture is not on the Main Screen anymore

Was he demoted

 

Electronic Darts?

 

Chris

[jgrinz]

Its baaacck now ... mm

[DirtyGoldMan]

My main beef with Hall's post is not the new rules. I have no trouble with them. Frankly, as far as I am concerned, they are a restatement of the old rules. There is a not-so-fine line between critcism and "bashing", and most rationale people, including PCGS, understand the difference.

 

My issue is with this statement:

 

Several of us, including yours truly, were in favor of just shutting down the boards. They are a cost of money and time to maintain and frankly, they don't seem to generate any significant revenue.

 

The boards are tremendously beneficial for PCGS, and it is foolish that DH does not realize so. If you post a submission question, you are much more likely to get the correct answer in a timely fashion from a poster like Russ than any of the nitwits that you might get on the phone at CU. This saves the need for more customer service agents and additional calls to the CS center.

 

The boards help considerably to promote the PCGS brand (as these boards do for NGC), are now a source for advertising revenue ($2000/month, IIRC, for the banner at the top of the page), and they have introduced countless newbies to the addiction of certified coin collecting. Would PCGS rather have these newbies get addicted here?

 

IMO, for the last couple years, they have tremendously underutilized the Q&A forum, which was a great way for their leadership to virtually press flesh with their customers. When that board was active, there were lots of good vibes going in both directions, and DH seemed very responsive to new ideas and the thoughts of the collecting base.

 

Finally, in every business, there are opportunities for goodwill, which are hard to measure on the bottom line, but make sense to do. CU is in the hobby business, and it makes sense to give something back to the hobby. Hosting the message board is one way to do so. Shuttering the boards now would be a slap in the face for their most ardent collecting base. It may not alter their business one iota, especially in the short run, but it will certainly reduce one of the portals of entry to the Kool Aid fountain.

 

Despite that I am an active poster ATS, I will be content if they keep and equally content if they shutter it. Makes no difference to me.

[ziggy29]

There is a not-so-fine line between critcism and "bashing", and most rationale people, including PCGS, understand the difference.

I wish I could agree. I don't think Mark was "bashing" PCGS. So while I would agree in principle that a "reasonable person" standard should probably apply as to when something is "bashing," I think a lot of reasonable people don't think Mark crossed the line from legitimate criticism and concern to "bashing."

[CoinPictures-migration]

Just my 2 cents, but I always found Mark Feld's posts to be not only extremely helpful, but even tempered and professsional. There are FAR more egregious violators and disruptive elements over there that have free reign simply because they have not criticized PCGS.

 

It's a travesty.

[DirtyGoldMan]

There is a not-so-fine line between critcism and "bashing", and most rationale people, including PCGS, understand the difference.

I wish I could agree. I don't think Mark was "bashing" PCGS. So while I would agree in principle that a "reasonable person" standard should probably apply as to when something is "bashing," I think a lot of reasonable people don't think Mark crossed the line from legitimate criticism and concern to "bashing."

 

I agree that Mark was not bashing, and I cannot condone the decision to ban him. I think that there was more than "bashing" going on there, and I blame PCGS, not Mark.

 

The above was an exceptional case, IMO,

 

I have never had a problem with Sportsmoderator1. For a guy who apparently does this for free, I think he does a commendable job.