A Comment On A Dealer Website That I Found Disturbing

[TomB]

The quote below was recently on a dealer website and it was something that struck a chord. The coin in question is a much better date, nineteenth century half dollar in a choice, mid-circulated grade. The coin was also one where I paused while looking at it and thought to myself that it appeared refreshingly more original than the majority of coins I had seen while cruising dealer sites that afternoon.

 

The statement in question reflects market reality, or at least the perception that many folks have toward the TPGs, and more or less gave me a chill upon reading it. Also, please note that I have no evidence that this dealer plans on altering the coin, or that this dealer has made a practice of altering similar pieces. The statement on the website has been changed slightly so as to better protect the identity of the coin and dealer, and is as follows-

 

Near perfection in this high circulated grade. It might be considered a dirty [next grade up] and it certainly would upgrade if lightened up. It is a nice coin as is.

 

The part of the description that was so powerful to me was "it certainly would upgrade if lightened up." This type of thinking scares the heck out of me when it comes to better date coinage. In my interpretation of the images the coin was already quite pleasing. Transforming the coin into something lighter in color would nearly destroy the coin, though it may raise its apparent market value due to a possible upgrade at one of the major TPGs. Would the coin upgrade if lightened up? I don't know. However, the open speculation engaged by the dealer regarding this coin made me feel badly that not only is this the state of the hobby-industry, but that others who are willing to alter the coin might also be looking at it and might be thinking the same regarding the possible upgrade.

 

Please note that I realize that coinage has been manipulated for many years and that such manipulations will continue, even if the methods become more refined. I also realize that the TPGs have performed substantial good for the hobby-industry. Therefore, I am not a babe in the woods when it comes to this arena. Additionally, I am not looking to list who the dealer is, nor what coin it is, because this should not be a posse event and I do not know that the dealer has ever performed the actions in question in order to obtain a higher grade.

[truthteller]

" However, the open speculation engaged by the dealer regarding this coin made me feel badly that not only is this the state of the hobby-industry, but that others who are willing to alter the coin might also be looking at it and might be thinking the same regarding the possible upgrade."

 

 

Tom, I afraid it's too late. The collector community has become less so, the investment community has overtaken them. It used to be a horror to mess with originality for a few dollars, now it is the norm. For a few, coins are Americana to be protected for the future, for the many, coins are a vehicle solely for profit.

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeKing]

The whole thing sucks. I have a coin or two that I KNOW would either cross from NGC to PCGS if I dipped them, or grade a point higher. Who do we blame for this, the collectors or the TPG's? Or both?

 

The fact that a dealer is characterizing a coin this way, reminds me of a couple of other beloved dealers who like to think of themselves as beyond reproach.

[WinstonWare]

Tom,

 

I want to make sure that I understand this. If someone dips an original coin, gets it into a holder with a 3-5 point increase, the coin will be worth more? I don’t question your knowledge in this area; that is an honest question. I just would have thought that most of us would pay more for the original coin minus a few points over an early 19th century white coin with a few point push. No?

[zrlevin]

I just would have thought that most of us would pay more for the original coin minus a few points over an early 19th century white coin with a few point push. No?

 

You don't spend much time on the PCGS boards, do you?

[TomB]

Yes, Winston, quite a few folks believe that there are those mid-grade circulated coins, when lightened up, that will manage to certify with a higher grade at the major TPGs. I cannot back up the belief with hard data, but I also believe that it happens with enough frequency, and produces enough wealth, that these coins are processed more than I find acceptable. The spreads for many coins are such that if you can go from VF35 to EF40 or EF45 to AU50 that you will make money on the coin even if it is now horrible.

[TJ'S Coins]

Informative post Tom, you have spelled out the thinking on what appeals to a large segment of the market rather than what is original with a lovely skin and matching patina.

 

It's very confusing for newbies who are attracted to "light" coins and almost instinctively taught to reject original, unmolested coins as non-appealing. I can see both sides of the argument plus the reality that coins have been manipulated for years. Perhaps many of us on these boards represent a niche of collectors rather than the mainstream who like bright silver, gold and copper, even if the luster is dull from repeated dippings.

 

Thanks much for your insights that create further thought!

[gmarguli]

Informative post Tom, you have spelled out the thinking on what appeals to a large segment of the market rather than what is original with a lovely skin and matching patina.

 

It's very confusing for newbies who are attracted to "light" coins and almost instinctively taught to reject original, unmolested coins as non-appealing. I can see both sides of the argument plus the reality that coins have been manipulated for years. Perhaps many of us on these boards represent a niche of collectors rather than the mainstream who like bright silver, gold and copper, even if the luster is dull from repeated dippings.

 

Not to take TomB's thread off topic, but exactly how do you know it's an "original, unmolested" coin? We all make assumptions that they are based on how they look, but the reality is that most coins have been played with at some point in time. It was an OK thing to do for many years and in some countries many collectors still don't care if their coins are cleaned.

 

I seem to be on the catalog list for every auction company in the world and I always find it funny to read stuff like "original cabinet toning" or "original patina" about a coin that is 150 years old. Who knows what has happened to the coin over the past years or what original should really look like.

 

[MikeKing]

At least we can agree, I think, that over-dipping coins can ruin the luster by dissolving the die flow lines. And if you have an over-dipped coin (which often yellows over time...doesn't it?) and it's cleaned abrasively it becomes worse, or if polished, gives a shine that is entirely unatural. So, my quess is, that the majority of us would say those are really *spoon* coins but what remains is how does one react to the 'grey zone' or the not so 'grey zone' when it comes to cleaning and re-toning and how it ocurred whether it was a short dip that didn't interfere with luster and 20 yr of kraft envelop toning vs a quick zotz of something while cooking. blah blah blah.

 

What am I trying to say before putting you all to sleep reading my post here.

Yes, there are some higher grade coins of which populations are extremely low, so much so that you might find PCGS with 3 and NGC with 6 and you go to cross your NGC 1/6 to PCGS and it's rejected and you're told by a 'friend' that it's heavily toned, and pcgs tends to be harsher on these coins. Well, suddenly, as I've seen the NGC 66's for that coin, 2/3 of them are no question MS66's, the others are iffy and I've seen some of those in 65 holders so it makes you wonder why? Why, when you do a presidential review do you actually find reference to toning spots and possible deteriorating contaminant (a tiny black spot with a small halo around it) as the REASON while several of your friends have TOLD you through the years that certain coins PCGS will just not grade high if heavily toned. So how did the others get through? the reall lesser ones, that if cracked out, will unlikely end up back in the same holder. For some reason, being dipped plays a role in their success for being graded higher, whether deserved or not.

 

I know I rambled, but I hope I said something cohesive...it's late...

[MikeKing]

then you take this very small group of coins with questionable character, and see that the pcgs grade brings twice as much money as the ngc grade...coin doesn't MATTER. These little dipped, some ugly, some beautiful all share one thing in common...light if not devoid of toning.

 

So the prices go out the roof because of the PCGS registry mania and there you have an artificially induced situation with so many ramifications.

 

Well, why to I call it artificially induced as opposed to 'what the market says'. Because 'what the market says' at that juncture is that skinned coins certified by pcgs at top tier levels goes for these higher prices.

[MBA101]

So this coin would need to be dipped to cross as a 66 at PCGS?

 

http://coins.heritageauctions.com/common...;hdnSearch=true

[supertooth]

Hello Folks----I haven't been writing a whole lot on the boards lately---what with being a busy, retired guy. Too much hunting causes one to hit the bed early. But this is a Sunday morning and I am well rested. And, as usual, my friend Tom B has caused me to THINK. He seems to be able to stir my older brain cells into some kind of action.

 

I think that what I like about Tom the most is how he openly presents a problem----trying to TEACH us all something---without being offensive to anyone. These traits are quite rare among the human population. Me----I just let my IRISH go---and get fired up---especially when I think that I am right. Then, when my brain catches up, I try to look at the FACTS----before I make decisions.

 

I first read this post on the PCGS boards this morning. Had planned on asking Tom to post it here. I see he already has done that. My thoughts are these.

 

Truth----You always tell the truth. And, I agree with you most times. TJ and Mike King also feel the same way.

 

What we have here is a combination of a lot of things. But what it comes down to are these two facts. Folks are GREEDY. And folks want to make MONEY. We could sit here and tell a hundred reasons why folks will do what they do. But, in the end, the urge to be wealthy will drive MOST folks to do whatever is necessary to gain that wealth. There is also a bit of a CHALLENGE involved in the coin BUSINESS also. The ART of being smarter than all the rest of us. It is an EGO thing that folks have. A form of ARROGANCE. To be soooooo knowledgable with coins that they can do anything that they want----and, because the rest of us are unawares, they can get away with it-----without EVER getting caught---and, as a result, get wealthy doing it. But, once in awhile, they do get caught.

 

Tom and I feel pretty much the same about coins. We each enjoy a coin that has not been messed with. To those who might say that we are not sure of that fact----well, I would repeat what I have said on these boards before. Come to my home and I will show to you what an 'original skinned' coin looks like. They do really still exist. And, when you see one, you do not need anyone to tell you that noone has touched it in the past. For the coin will do the talking for itself. This is just pure truth. And, when I see what has happened to a wonderful hobby, I am just plain SICK. For the folks that are engaged in altering a coin for a profit-----ARE NOT NUMISMATISTS. They are just money hungry individuals who care not for the hobby. They care only for themselves and the profits that can be had by using their knowledge to fool the unsuspecting collector.

 

Well, that about covers it. Except to say that the TPGS----by agreeing to follow the lead of the moneymakers----are themselves part of the problem. I wish it wasn't so----and they can change it if they want to. Bob [supertooth]

[MAULEMALL]

supertooth

WYNK Founder

A pretty surprising post from The WYNK Founder...Very Feldesque if you will...

So Everyone who dissagrees with you is NOT a Numismatist?...

Everyone who dissagrees with you on the topic of conservation of coins is just a greedy swindler??

 

Probably one of the poorest posts I have read on these boards..

[DC Dawg]

Well, that about covers it. Except to say that the TPGS----by agreeing to follow the lead of the moneymakers----are themselves part of the problem. I wish it wasn't so----and they can change it if they want to. Bob [supertooth]

 

Bob... nice to meet you, especially when we agree!

 

Regarding this last paragraph, the one thing to keep in mind that the TPGS are commercial entities that are in business to make a profit. For example, Collector's Universe, which own PCGS, is listed on NASDAQ and have shareholders to answer to. Although the Collectors' Society, owners of NGC, is a private company, I would venture to say they are looking for a profit, too.

 

This is not to say either company does a bad job in their grading practices. It does say that whatever they do has to be performed with the health and welfare of the business in mind. They will not tell you this, but it can be seen by their actions.

 

I believe that as long as there is a profit motive for these companies, they will do business in areas that those of us who think of their work in an altruistic light will object with.

 

Scott

[MikeKing]

So this coin would need to be dipped to cross as a 66 at PCGS?

 

http://coins.heritageauctions.com/common...;hdnSearch=true

 

The answer to that is I don't know. I find them somewhat predictable with some kinds of coins (like Liberty and Sheild nickels, but unpredictable with Bust halves. I've heard they tend to undergrade the heavily toned ones, and I've seen a lot of stripped naked AU58's -63's that makes me wonder how they would have graded them if they were heavily toned. I have a stripped naked AU58 in my collection. I like it.

[WinstonWare]

You don't spend much time on the PCGS boards, do you?

 

Not recently. Not so much.

 

...you will make money on the coin even if it is now horrible

 

This is the part that I have a hard time understanding. Who is buying these?

[Doogy]

The whole thing sucks. I have a coin or two that I KNOW would either cross from NGC to PCGS if I dipped them, or grade a point higher. Who do we blame for this, the collectors or the TPG's? Or both?

 

The fact that a dealer is characterizing a coin this way, reminds me of a couple of other beloved dealers who like to think of themselves as beyond reproach.

 

 

I think it is safe to say that we can blame one guy.......greed. Mr. Greed is all about making changes to coins, and then having the owner sell it off for a tidy profit. If someone weren't interested in making a quick buck, why try some things to get it into a "better" grade? just a thought

[gmarguli]

The whole thing sucks. I have a coin or two that I KNOW would either cross from NGC to PCGS if I dipped them, or grade a point higher. Who do we blame for this, the collectors or the TPG's? Or both?

 

The fact that a dealer is characterizing a coin this way, reminds me of a couple of other beloved dealers who like to think of themselves as beyond reproach.

 

 

I think it is safe to say that we can blame one guy.......greed. Mr. Greed is all about making changes to coins, and then having the owner sell it off for a tidy profit. If someone weren't interested in making a quick buck, why try some things to get it into a "better" grade? just a thought

 

Are you sure you shouldn't be blaming Mr. Demand? After all, if Mr. Demand wasn't waving his $$$ in the air, Mr. Greed wouldn't exist.

[TomB]

I think Greg makes some good points, both about originality and demand.

 

My interpretation of original coins comes partly from understanding what many altered coins look like. It also comes from closely scrutinizing surfaces, retained dirt patterns, retained and obscured luster and by inspecting coins that were not saved in any special manner, though survived for decades by happenstance.

 

The question about who buys altered pieces is really straightforward; if the piece can find its way into a higher grade TPG holder then many, if not most, dealers will happily take the coin if they believe they can re-introduce the piece to the market at an attractive profit. Likewise, this behavior of dealers is tacitly supported by the TPGs when pieces receive higher grades and actively supported by the coin buying public when the coins are placed into collections at higher price levels.

 

Each person must come to their own decision on what is acceptable for originality for each coin. My working definitions would not be suitable for greater than 99% of collectors and dealers, in my opinion, but they work for me.

[IGWT]

Are you sure you shouldn't be blaming Mr. Demand? After all, if Mr. Demand wasn't waving his $$$ in the air, Mr. Greed wouldn't exist.

 

Supply-side economics is alive and well in numismatics. The First Strike designation is the best current example. There wasn't any demand for this pointless designation until after the TPGs invented it and the hucksters hyped it. So, we have to point a finger at Mr. Supply, too.

 

I see your point, though. Mr. Greed is the father of both Supply and Demand (and stupidity is his illegitimate child).

[jom]

Each person must come to their own decision on what is acceptable for originality for each coin. My working definitions would not be suitable for greater than 99% of collectors and dealers, in my opinion, but they work for me.

 

Wow! What an original idea! Buy what you like and pass on coins you don't like. Interesting. I'll have to consider that in my buying process from now on.

 

 

jom

[Bruceswar]

Each person must come to their own decision on what is acceptable for originality for each coin. My working definitions would not be suitable for greater than 99% of collectors and dealers, in my opinion, but they work for me.

 

Wow! What an original idea! Buy what you like and pass on coins you don't like. Interesting. I'll have to consider that in my buying process from now on.

 

 

jom

 

 

So thats why you spray can so many coins?

[jom]

So thats why you spray can so many coins?

 

Of course, what other possible reason do you think.....wait.....d'oh

 

jom

[Bruceswar]

So thats why you spray can so many coins?

 

Of course, what other possible reason do you think.....wait.....d'oh

 

jom

 

For the new guys here Jom is a not a coin doctor, thids was the running joke some time back. Just wanted to clear that up.

[Frank Provasek]

All coins are continually lightened as they circulate. No VF or XF coin has original "skin."

[WinstonWare]

All coins are continually lightened as they circulate. No VF or XF coin has original "skin."

 

Bust halves are still circulating in the Fort Worth area?

[TomB]

Our definitions of the term are obviously different.

[RGT]

All coins are continually lightened as they circulate. No VF or XF coin has original "skin."

 

Welcome Frank. You should come back more often, but please don't bring your "friends" from the newsgroups.

 

Like Tom said, your definition of original skin may not be the same as someone elses. When a coin leaves the mint it really doesn't have a skin on it. It acquires the "skin" through various chemical reactions with elements and compunds in the environment. If the coin is circulated it will also loose this skin where it wears but it will also continually acquire new "skin".

 

I'm not real sure what "original skin" means with a circulated coin. A lightly circulated coin will have original skin in the protected areas where it still retains it's luster. Maybe original skin would be the skin it acquired since the day it was taken out of circulation. I guess that means that the coin hasn't been stripped or dipped and allowed to acquire a new skin. Most of the time it is not too difficult to tell when a coin has been messed with and it's skin removed, even if it has grown a new skin. Sometimes it is not so easy or impossible.

 

Maybe you and Tom can tell us what you define as original skin for a circulated coin and we can all learn something.

[MarkFeld]

Are you sure you shouldn't be blaming Mr. Demand? After all, if Mr. Demand wasn't waving his $$$ in the air, Mr. Greed wouldn't exist.

 

Supply-side economics is alive and well in numismatics. The First Strike designation is the best current example. There wasn't any demand for this pointless designation until after the TPGs invented it and the hucksters hyped it. So, we have to point a finger at Mr. Supply, too.

 

I see your point, though. Mr. Greed is the father of both Supply and Demand (and stupidity is his illegitimate child).

Perhaps we should consider distinguishing informed demand from uninformed demand. Many buyers unknowingly acquire coins that have been dipped, lightened, cleaned, artificially toned, etc. However, many of those same buyers might pass on the coins if they knew what had been done to them.

[gmarguli]

Are you sure you shouldn't be blaming Mr. Demand? After all, if Mr. Demand wasn't waving his $$$ in the air, Mr. Greed wouldn't exist.

 

Supply-side economics is alive and well in numismatics. The First Strike designation is the best current example. There wasn't any demand for this pointless designation until after the TPGs invented it and the hucksters hyped it. So, we have to point a finger at Mr. Supply, too.

 

I see your point, though. Mr. Greed is the father of both Supply and Demand (and stupidity is his illegitimate child).

Perhaps we should consider distinguishing informed demand from uninformed demand. Many buyers unknowingly acquire coins that have been dipped, lightened, cleaned, artificially toned, etc. However, many of those same buyers might pass on the coins if they knew what had been done to them.

 

Perhaps much of the market chooses to be uninformed? What I don't know won't hurt me.

 

I think this can be seen by looking at many responses you'll get on the forums. People talking about liking original coins and posting a picture of a bright white Morgan. People talking about liking original coins just as they left the mint and posting a picture of a white Seated coin. There is a very high probability that the coins are dipped, but even when presented with the likelihood of them being dipped, they don't want to hear it. There is such a major demand out there for bright white coins that much of the market chooses to be uninformed.

 

Take a look at some of the "monster toned Morgans" recently on the marketplace. I laugh when they get posted. They look cartoonish. I think we all have strong reason to suspect that a story may have been made up to sell some coins, but the buyers don't want to hear it. In fact, some of them get downright angry when even a slight question is raised about them.