Does NGC holder AT coins?

[truthteller]

Absolutely. I have been absorbing some of the posts on both PCGS and NGC forums as of late as well as viewing coins on the marketplace and have come to a conclusion. NGC will holder AT coins. Here is why I am addressing this issue.

 

Over the last two years, NGC has made a valiant effort to reduce the number of coins that get holdered with artificial toning. As of about 3 months ago, the numbers seem to be increasing. Why? Are the graders less competant? Are the colors more beautiful? Are the methods more clever? The answer is NO to all of the above.

 

In my opinion, what has happened is the coin doctors have become more clever as to the packages they send in for submission. Instead of sending in 5 or ten coins that are AT, the doctors now 'plant' the AT coins within packages of good toning. Many doctors used to try and make a fast turnaround with quick submissions with the hope the AT coins would make it past the graders. This changed for NGC as of two years ago, when they cracked down. However, with the premiums that color get now at auction, the doctors have more time and money to work with. They tend to be more patient, then tend to select packages of real toned coins that match the AT coins. The doctors will mix in several denominations together of similar looking specimens to get past the graders. Is it working, yes. For the most part, I have seen more AT coins are the marketplace now, that in recent memory, even though the crack down is more apparant. Why? Because the real toned coins are merely the set up coins for the AT coins. The real toned coins stay real and become part of the business cycle, while the AT coins are sold off.

 

How do the grading services become more dilligent? When a package arrives for grading, and the first few coins are beautiful, ask yourself as a grader, this is a setup and be suspicious from coin 1, thereby alerting the grading to SPEND MORE TIME grading beautifully toned coins, because the reputation is riding on the slab. Just an opinion.

 

TRUTH

[stman]

Agreed, but I feel it's more than just the Docs submitting the setup coins. Might just be people we know and hear of all the time. And also might be who many hold in high regard as well. JMO

[braddick]

So, the AT coins look close enough to the NT coins to fool the Graders?

When it gets to where the order of the coins determines if the coin gets holdered or not, (confirmed) that's the day I stop sending in coins.

 

I find it difficult to believe that method, alhtough I've heard of it before, truly FOOLS the Graders although I find it a fascinating theory.

 

[BillJones]

Sadly NGC certified a lot of AT silver coins years ago. That's the reason why so many NGC coins have such low bids compared to PCGS on the Blue Sheet. From what I have seen NGC has mended their ways in recent years, and they have gotten much better at spotting AT coins.

[keithdagen]

Absolutely. I have been absorbing some of the posts on both PCGS and NGC forums as of late as well as viewing coins on the marketplace and have come to a conclusion. NGC will holder AT coins. Here is why I am addressing this issue.

 

Just want to point out that the same statement holds true for PCGS.

 

The skills of doctors and the methods employed make it extremely difficult to find all the AT coins out there and keep them out of slabs. I have seen a lot of questionable material in the holders of both services.

 

Good rule of thumb is that if the color looks too good to be true, get a second opinion.

[gmarguli]

All the grading services will slab AT coins. Sometimes they slip thru and other times they are market acceptable. Also, if the coin isn't blatant AT and not worth that much, they will sometimes net grade them (whether or not they wish to admit this).

 

From what I have been told, the AT doctors find a new method of faking the toning and they submit them. The first few get thru and then the grading services get wise and stop slabbing them. The grading services either notice the spike in similar looking coins or one of the doctors is so arrogant that he talks and claims responsibility for the AT job and it makes its way back to the grading services. I used to own a commem that had outrageous toning. It was AT. I saw a twin of this coin in an NGC slab in a major auction. Talking to a dealer in the "know" and the ANACS people, these type of coins slipped thru for a very short while and then the services wised up to it and bagged the newer ones.

 

From my experience, Morgan dollars seem to be the most blatant AT jobs that will get into a slab. I've seen some extremely questionable Morgans in slabs.

 

Over the years I have submitted quite a bit of toned coins to the grading services. Overall I think they do a good job of keeping AT coins out of slabs. In my experience NGC will bag coins rather quickly if they have questionable toning. Same with PCGS.

 

I believe more AT coins are going to NGC than PCGS for two main reasons. PCGS used to be stupid with toned coins. They bagged so many natural toned coins that people got tired of submitting toned coins to them. If you remember back 1-2 years ago, PCGS was on a rampage and just bagged the hell out of everything. Secondly, NGC now gives the * designation which commands a nice premium (30% or so). If you're going to get a coin in a slab, you might as well go for the bigger payoff. Both of these things leads to more AT coins going to NGC, which means that on an overall number basis they will let more AT coins slip thru.

 

[braddick]

Greg- what is your opinion of ANACS? Are they as skilled/tight with AT as NGC or PCGS?

 

Also, if that Commemorative was a Texas- I've seen those too.

A couple in SEGS holders before SEGS even wised up.

[gmarguli]

ANACS can be tough, but not as much as PCGS/NGC. ANACS seems to like to downgrade (net grade) questionable toned coins - especially moderns. I've seen a lot of extremely questionable toned modern coins in ANACS slabs, yet they are graded low (PF65-67). I think that ANACS downgrades them (i.e. net grades) without labeling them as AT and giving an official Net Grade.

 

Currently I think that ANACS is a little lighter on the "problem coins" since they are looking for the submissions. Before they net graded everything, but now they are letting things slip thru. I think they are still hurting from their little "super tight rampage" from a couple of years ago.

 

 

The commem was a BTW. I've got a picture of it somewhere as well as a picture of the NGC slabbed one. I'll try to dig them up when I have some time.

 

I've also seen the Texas commems that you are talking about that slipped thru NGC. I was a little surprised at those getting thru since they looked somewhat typical AT. Even more surprised at how they got thru considering how they were submitted - if you know the story you'll understand. If not, I'll PM you the details.

[truthteller]

Wait a minute, just a minute. I would also like to hear the story of the texas commems. Was it a interesting 1938 set that was sold recently at auction? I WANT TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

TRUTH

[Beijim]

Hey Greg, thanks for posting the great information. As a collector who's just beginning to explore toned coins, I appreciate the insight you more experienced folks provide in separating the wheat from the chaff. As it were.

 

Beijim

 

[Dog97]

One thing I've often wondered about is that people send the no-brainer original coins to PCGS but reccommend sending the questionable ones to NGC.

I've also seen some real funky looking Morgans on eBay in NGC holders that I kinda thought were AT but the old hardcore long time Morgan collectors said they were merely enhanced pictures.

But the collectors that have used these sellers say the coins look just like the picture.

I'm getting to where I don't trust anybody on eBay or any grading service any more.

Here's a pict of one I find strange on attachment.

Enhanced picture or AT?

[braddick]

Dog97- You bring up valid points. The no-brainers go to PCGS (but even then- some get bagged!) while the liners go to NGC or ANACS.

You attachement Morgan looks real to me. I see a bit of ghosting around the stars on the right and I think that's tough to fake.

 

Then again, that "BLUE" is something I don't remember seeing 15 years ago as much as I'm seeing now.

 

Either way, sure is pretty and I've gotten to the point that is all I concern myself with.

[truthteller]

Dog,

 

I think the color is real, but the picture is a bit enhanced to show the colors on the rim. Maybe a more light blue in real life? Either way, it's pretty in the picture.

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

Wait a minute, just a minute. I would also like to hear the story of the texas commems. Was it a interesting 1938 set that was sold recently at auction? I WANT TO KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Without getting into too much detail, the way I heard it was the first batch to NGC some got slabbed and some got bagged as AT. Same with second batch. Next batch all got bagged. I was told that the "services had learned about these" (i.e. they had either seen enough of them to know they were being made fresh or they were told by someone who knew that they were being made fresh). Then all bagged at ICG. Then all in 3rd tier slabs. No idea where they went from there.

 

I saw a couple of these coins and I was surprised NGC slabbed them. They were AT in my opinion. I've seen other commems with the same type of toning, which makes me think even more that they are AT.

 

 

These had no relation to the 1938 set which I assume was in the Heritage auction two Long Beaches ago. I went after one of those coins, but was outbid by Anaconda. The other coins in the set were too dark. Were those AT? I don't know. I liked one, but not enough to bid high. The others weren't to my liking because the toning was too dark.

 

I've seen many Texas commems with similar dark stained glass toning. If I had to guess I would say they (all them like this, not the 1938 set in particular) were "mostly" natural. Maybe a little help to add some color, but not outright 100% AT. I've seen at least two old time date sets of Texas commems with similar toning, yet more monster, that had to be real since I don't know of any doctor being able to do that type of toning 16 years ago.

[gmarguli]

I think the Morgan might be real. While ice blue isn't common and can frequently be a sign of AT, it does occur on Morgans occasionally.

 

I think most likely the picture is brightened and the blue isn't really as vivid as the picture shows.

[TomB]

I might have seen the same Texas commems that Greg is talking about at the Baltimore show last year. I thought the coins to be blatant AT but were being sold be a toning specialist, so, I think many people would have thought they were good. No way. They were junk. As far as I know, those coins were bagged by NGC and then went to SEGS where they now reside holdered.

 

I don't know if I buy Truth's theory about the set-up coins as I have had quite a few completley original coins bagged that were in submissions of all toned coins.

[Leothelion]

I've been wondering how wide spread the practice is of artificially toning coins AFTER they have been slabbed. I remember reading an article of such testing on what were the best sealed slabs.

 

Leo