Are Stars Underweighted in the Registry?

[gmarguli]

Checking out some of the weightings, Stars appear to get on average between 10%-20% more points, with most toward the lower end of that range. According to the population reports, Stars frequently account for less than 1% of the coins graded, but some of that can be accounted for in the fact it is a new designation.

 

In the marketplace Stars frequently command a 30% premium for nothing more than nice eye appealing luster. Superb toning which garners the Star designation can result in multiples of non-Star prices.

 

If we subscribe to the belief that the grade on a slab is a starting point for the condition and not the ending point, then shouldn't coins with the Star designation garner significantly higher points? After all, these are the exceptional coins.

 

Why should a BlueSheet dog that sells for $100 get 250 points while a stunning example with the Star designation only get 280 point?

 

I can see giving only minor point upgrades for proof coins since a one sided cameo can result in the Star designation, but not for MS coins.

 

 

 

[braddick]

The STAR system and NCS are two terrific ideas I'm sure PCGS is kicking themselves for not 'inventing' on their own (or having the balls to impliment).

 

I'm sure, down the road, PCGS will come up with a PQ designator of their own.

The STAR is a wild success (unlike the "W" and "T" that crashed and burned).

 

I now search out STAR coins in NGC holders as I have yet to see one that didn't meet my full approval.

 

::Whoops:: Rambling. Sorry. To answer your question: YES. Registry points should equal 25% of the earned amount each coin is awarded now. I thought that is what NGC was doing? I'm learning now it is less than that?

[dena]

Yes, we have been applying a 25% premium for coins with the star designation but in some cases it may not appear that way. Here's why...

 

When we started the Registry we scored coins based on a number of factors including market value. In some series we ran into a situation where there was coin in a set that was pretty unattainable for most due to value. Of course this coin had a very high score in the registry. So, if one user had every coin in the set except the high value coin, he/she could still not beat the set that had just the one high value coin. Needless to say, we had a lot of unhappy people who didn't want to play if they couldn't aspire to be #1.

 

In response, we applied a formula to the scores that would lessen the humongous gaps that sometimes exist between coins so sets that are more complete have a chance against the set with only the one monster coin.

 

So, while we initially enter a 25% premium for a coin with the star designation, the 25% can look distorted after the formula is applied.

 

 

 

 

 

[braddick]

Yes, we have been applying a 25% premium for coins with the star designation but in some cases it may not appear that way. Here's why...

 

When we started the Registry we scored coins based on a number of factors including market value. In some series we ran into a situation where there was coin in a set that was pretty unattainable for most due to value. Of course this coin had a very high score in the registry. So, if one user had every coin in the set except the high value coin, he/she could still not beat the set that had just the one high value coin. Needless to say, we had a lot of unhappy people who didn't want to play if they couldn't aspire to be #1.

 

In response, we applied a formula to the scores that would lessen the humongous gaps that sometimes exist between coins so sets that are more complete have a chance against the set with only the one monster coin.

 

So, while we initially enter a 25% premium for a coin with the star designation, the 25% can look distorted after the formula is applied.

 

 

 

 

Who said the Registry wasn't rocket science?

[TomB]

So, if I understand you correctly, dena, you are writing that a coin with a star designation is first given a 25% bump in value and that the value is placed on the sliding scale for points and that the sliding scale for points does not have a direct, linear and one-to-one correlation with value.

[michael]

i talked to someone at ngc the research dept last week

 

about the particiulars of a specific coin type and i mentioned the star and he told me it is worth 25% more per the registry

 

i guess for me it should be that and in many cases more as you can have a really nice technically spuerb pre civil war silver seated coin with a star that is like out of this world and only 25%?? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm should be more lots more weight but i guess in this imperfect world the weighters do the best they can and i am sure some coins are really underweighted for what they are

 

just the way it is as reviewing each coin to its particiular merits by an expert panel for all coins registered for the registry i guess is just impractical

 

but a good job nonethe less and remember that star does not mean PQ at all

in fact it could be a just made it coin! but a coin with exceptional eye appeal!!

 

it just means the coin has ezceptional eye appeal

 

now i am sure some are very nice and yes pq for the grade but there is a huge misconception in the coin game about the star as many just cant realize that star is for excpetional eye appeal only and means nothing about pq for the grade

 

and being one of the most subjective things eye appeal combined with the misconception of pq as it means thr star exceptional eye appeal

 

i think overall ngc does a great job with star coins

 

i guess you have to like the coin and if it is super duper great and is technically superb and wuith a star on the holder well it cant hurt!!

 

 

sincerely michael

[braddick]

Well, Tom and Michael sure cleared that up...

[michael]

i really do not like to comment as with human nature it is always kill the messenger and that is the way it has always been and will be

 

when the runners of the past long ago inca civilivation they used to be the telephone and e mail so to speak of these cultures and when the runner delivered themessage of bad news to the king usually the messenger got killed

 

as one of the finalizers has said in the past on these forums even a just made it for the grade, solid for the grade, even super high end, even undergraded coin could get a star as it has nothing to do with the grade just the eye appeal

 

i have seen since last dec a MAJOR long term many decade professional well known PNG coin dealer that advertises in coin world list coins with the star and he calls them PQ for the grade and also states this is what ngc means by the star the coin is undergraded!!!!!!

 

i called ngc last dec to tell them to inform the dealer that this is not true they said they would see the dealer at the fun show last jan and tell him!!

 

well just this past month he is still listing ngc star coins and telling that it means the coin is pq for the grade by ngc!!!!!!!!!

 

 

so i can see why there is so much confusion about the star!!

 

even on the pcgs boards i see it all the time where others say ngc star means pq for the grade and lots more than once or twice!! i know ngc is clear on the star so i guess there is a ton of misinformation going around about the star

 

 

I HOPE NGC CAN TAKE OUT SOME MAJOR ADS IN COIN WOULD AND OTHER TOP PUBLICATIONS TO BETTER CLARIFY THE STAR DESIGNATION john maben did a series of excellent!! in fact superb posts on the coin boards like 6? months ago??about the star

 

i wish all these coin posts could be put together and listed somewhere where everyone could access it on the web and again as per the above put an ad in coin would and the numismatist and numismatic news and clarify this issue to try to make it clear to evetyone

 

i think the star is one of the great and better designationsbut just totally misunderstood and the icing on the cake is with many series and issues of coins it really takes a specialist to see and understand why some coins make the star and others seemingly so star coins ARE NOT

and of course i understand some do not get it

 

well such is the highly subjective nature of coin evaulation

!

 

and of course it is a subjective thing but i think with the graders eyes with all they see they may not make many star coins

but the ones they do make certianly are exceptional coins for their respective series and dates from my experience with them and from what i hear from other major players in the market whom i trust

 

and YES i have no doubt there are star coins that are true stars but the star is not on the holder

 

i guess that is the point of the star there are really very few really truly superb exceptionally eye appealling coins out there yes i am sure there are really super nice coins but they are just not excpetional and that is okie

 

might be exceptional for some who have limited experience in the coin game and that is okie also

 

it amazes me what many people on the pcgs boards are calling rainbow and monster coins even exceptional coins are not even close in other words NOT RAINBOW TONED NOR MONSTERS in fact MANY of the coins are not even exceptional let alone monster

 

one expert dealer and former grader even started a post about this on the pcgs boards!

 

well this is one defination where beauty is in the eye of the beholder and nothing is going to change that for most all especially so the newbees even some old timers

 

i guess after all is said and done coins is a fun hobby if you are starting out buying coins and you see something that to me is within my speciality and i have been doing this for decades that does not make me better or smarter but what some call monster and again rainbow is not even close to that for me and that does not make me smarter or a know it all or even a wise [!@#%^&^] as this is just the way it is

 

but i guess that is what makes a market everybody is different and if everyone thought the same there would be no selling or buying coins at all as everyone would value everything the same! no money to be made so no trades! sales! etc

 

but many have a huge awakening when it comes time to sell their precious monsters and i have seen this in two specific instances on the pcgs boards of two newbees with lots of cash and little to no experience get very vocal on the pcgs boards when they finally realize the expensive monster toned coins they bought and paid huge premiums for from some well less than savory coin sellers are NOT MONSTERS NOR EVEN CLOSE and take a 20@ to 65% maybe more? liquidation on the dollar for coins they bought within a year or less closer to less

 

and i know in the above both instances as a fact as per the above!!

 

but i guess in the end when all is said and done YOU HAVE TO

BUY COINS WITH MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE

ONLY BUY COINS FOR FUN

ONLY BUY COINS THAT YOU LIKE

AND ONLY YOU CAN DETERMINE WHAT YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY

YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT A COIN YOURSELF AND FIGURE OUT WHAT IT IS WORTH TO YOU

AND COINS ARE NOT AN INVESTMENT OR A SAVINGS OF MONEY FOR A RAINY DAY

 

if you do not do all of the above that is okie just let the buyer beware

 

and i am sure some do not do any of the above and they make out super great but this is way way way more the exception rather then the rule!

 

and of course when all is said and done maybe i might be a total [!@#%^&^] and totally wrong or have all the right answers but it just gives you more information for YOU TO MAKE YOUR OWN DECSISON that is all i care about that you understand with information for you to make a good informed decsison

as in the way distant past i got totally burned and it really effected me financially and many other ways that were not good for me and i would HATE

ANYONE TO GO THROUGH I DID

 

SO IT MIGHT SEEM AT TIMES I AM BEING HARSH but i just want everyone to get all the correct information OR WHAT I THINK IS CORRECT...... to make a better informed decsison for themselves

 

and mainly for some newbee to see a star coin and then think hey everyone says it is pq for the grade and buy it thinking it is an upgrade! based on the star on the holder which is not true!

 

i want them to go into the coin game with both eyes wide open with more information to let them make a better informed decsison

then if they still screw up well i can lead a horse to water but i cant make him drink!!

 

i hope you make all the right decsisons and do not get burned too badly in the coin game!!

 

 

sincerely michael

[braddick]

[ArtR]

Michael:

Enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. The only thing that throws me off on the Star designation is how a coin can be graded MS69 and not receive a Star. To me for a coin to reach this lofty grade the eye appeal would have to be Exceptional. I have seen in person the two Antietam's that NGC have Graded MS69 both are mind blowing coins, but neither carries a star.

[braddick]

Tom, you got me thinking... I wonder, seriously, which is better: a coin with the lofty grade OF MS69 or a MS68* coin?

 

In some ways, I think I would go for the STAR 68. Think about it. Much less cost, and the coin is so close to the 69 yet the STAR separates it with blast eye appeal.

[michael]

hi there art

 

yes art i agree with you take the elgins in ms68 there are 4 two are star i guess for me a 68 would need to be for the most part a star and of course i would say and pre 1950 coin tha gets 69 has to be a star to get such a grade

 

but maybe the coin got the 69 grade and it was done before they had the star?

 

or maybe for such a high grade it is just so nice that who cares if you got the star if you got the 69??

or like pat said maybe a 68* would be better rather have than a 69??

i guess this grading thing will always be subjective but i guess it is a start on the holder

 

for me once you reach the gaga grades 69 and i personally do not believe in the 70 grade so for a 69 i guess it would have to knock me out star or not

 

and i am talking about pre 1950 coins as per the above as for the ultra modern coins i think most if not all are 69 star coins!

 

i guess when you get to such lofty grades as 69 and 70 69* the star is redundant? i guess it is hard to tell as for me i just so not think there are goinb to be many if any coins thayt are true 69 coins pre 1950

 

i am sure there will be some like gold dollars ms the later dates and maybe a piece of proog gold or two but for the most part i think ms proof 68 is it for pre 1950 coins and the coins that are like FREAKIN WILD SHOUILD GET THE 68 STAR

 

i have yet to see many coin witrhi my speicalities really qualify for a 69

 

i am sure there are a few oyut there but the coin would have to totally knock me out and just have ;THE LOOK:

 

waht that look is i do not know

 

i guess once you hit the 69 and 70 grades for pre 1950 stuff evenmore so pre 1920 stuff in 69 it is all up in the air for me so to speak

 

i would say even a n early commem in ms69 i guess even without the star that is probsbly the best as an early pre ms proof 69 coin with a star is redundant and overkill

 

as if the coin grades 69 well i think that says it all!!

 

now with 68 yes i can see a star as all 68 coins should be all there to me there is no such thing as a hi low or solid for the gradce 68 coin pre 1950 it is all there or not and a star for a 68 coin just means it is REALLY A KILLER KNOCKOUT COIN SOMETIHNG THAT IS LIKE THE MOST AMAZING EYE APPEAL COIN OR DAMN CLOSE TO ITIN ITS RESPECTIVRE SERIES

 

again for what i likie pre 1950 coins i just think 69 and 70 just do not exist maybe just maybe 69 but that would be a rare ezcpetion to the rule

 

and definately not a 70 even for the modern coins or ultra modern coins

 

sincerely michael

[michael]

hi there art i think since i have not seen the 69 antitidums that is they grade it 69 that says it all

the services are saying that the coin is better than a 68*

 

as you got a food eye art and if you really like them and they are knockouts i guess the service is saying they are like just knock outs with the 69 i think the star as such would be redundant

 

they must be j killer colors and monster lustre and totally mark free to get the 69!

 

sincerely michael