I processed TEN copper coins with MS-70 last night - SEE THE RESULTS!

[James_OldeTowne]

There are ten copper coins illustrated below, each one processed with MS-70, and with a "before" and an "after" image for each coin. I processed the coins at room temperature with no added heat. The only materials used to perform this experiment were:

 

- ten "copper" coins

- MS-70

- Q-tips (cotton type)

- distilled water

- white lint-free paper towels

- canned air

 

I swabbed each coin fairly aggressively with the MS-70 for approximately fifteen seconds each (I used a timer), and then rinsed each profusely in the distilled water. Next, I blotted each dry with the paper towels, and then hit each coin with canned air to ensure complete drying. The images were taken of strictly dry coins, and under duplicated lighting conditions. Images are not tweaked in any way, except to resize them (no "auto-adjust").

 

My conclusions from this experiment are as follows:

 

1. MS-70 has no significant effect on virgin UNC or PF "Red" copper

 

2. MS-70 removes copper patination from circulated coins, but does not generally turn them blue. Instead, it merely "lightens" the color by stripping the patination, revealing lighter "tan" color underneath.

 

3. UNC or PF coins with Red/Brown or Brown patination will turn blue with an application of MS-70, but only in the patinated areas. Unpatinated (ie. "Red") areas remain red.

 

4. MS-70 successfully and usefully removes spots, including verdigris, from copper

 

5. MS-70 will strip the high-points of a coin regardless of color if applied aggressively, but this is likely more a result of the cotton swab rubbing on the metal.

 

6. Actual copper content may play a role in determining how much effect MS-70 has

 

Here are the coins:

 

#1 The patination was stripped, but the coin did not turn blue. It turned more of a "tan" color:

 

 

#2 Significant blue color appeared on this RB (mostly brown) coin, but note that the originally-red areas remained basically red:

 

 

#3 Patination was stripped from this coin, making it much like #1:

 

 

#4 Some patination was stripped, but this higher-grade coin did have some old spots, and those were a little attenuated by the MS-70. This is probably a good example of the usefulness of the product. Had I kept at it, I'm certain the spots could have been completely removed:

 

 

#5 Dramatic change here, with the coin turning bright purple. This coin was originally nearly brown, and had a fingerprint on the back. The lighter, more "Red" areas changed the least, but the "Brown" areas turned purple for sure. Note how some detracting spots were removed, and replaced with darker blue color. Note also how the fingerprint remains on the reverse. This is highly reminiscent of the Blue IHCs:

 

 

#6 This one is a mystery. The coin actually had a pre-existing bluish tint - which MS-70 removed, resulting in a coin that actually looks more original. In other words, MS-70 seems to have made the coin more red. Could this be a copper-content related issue? Maybe the MS-70 removed something (varnish?) that was contaminating the surface.

 

 

#7 This came out of an old tube-roll that I've had for years, and it is virgin copper. MS-70 has had virtually no discernible effect, and definitely did not add blue color:

 

 

#8 Another huge change! As has been discovered, red areas tended to remain red, brown areas turned blue, and red/brown areas turned purple. Wild!

 

 

#9 I chose this coin as it already had a slightly greenish cast. Application of MS-70 didn't have a huge impact, but did add some subtle purple and magenta areas.

 

 

#10 MS-70 beneficially dissolved and removed most of the ugly carbon spots from the obverse, and I'm certain would have removed all the spots from the reverse as well if I would have kept at it. The color change is impressive, going from basically Brown with hints of Red to Purple/Magenta. Furthermore, the luster on this coin was dramatically improved. Barring the spots, this coin looks to have taken a 2-3 point upgrade.

 

Your thoughts, please?

 

 

James

[DirtyGoldMan]

Your thoughts, please?

 

Other than the obvious, "you have too much time on your hands" , I think you did a terrific job replicating the effect that is the root cause of all the controversy. Now, I know which coins to treat and which to leave alone. Very interesting experiement.

 

Good work, James!

[MarkFeld]

Thanks for your time and efforts, James.

 

My (brief) thoughts before I head over to the ANA show:

 

The application of MS70 looks to have caused changes in color and did NOT (as some with vested interests have claimed) merely bring out/reveal colors which were already present, but somehow hidden. That is consistent with other results I have seen and/or heard about.

 

I think some of your results might have been even more dramatic, had you used proof coins and added heat to the process.

[TJ'S Coins]

Interesting experiment James. It makes me suspect of any copper coin that features blue or purple. Not that a person cannot collect those if they like but I'm starting to believe they are the product of doctoring or AT.

 

I have a dumb question. Why doesn't the cotton swab and the aggressive rubbing not leave hairlines? Does the liquid reduce the friction?

[James_OldeTowne]

TJ, EXCELLENT question, and one which I intended to address (but forgot).

 

I hadn't used this MS-70 in a long time, and forgot how foul the stuff really is. One thing I discovered is that it makes your skin feel "slimy". I'm convinced that it either is a lubricant, or contains one, and that's why it doesn't impart hairlines. An interesting thing is that on the bottle itself, it states that you must "rub" the MS-70 onto the coin; you can't just "dip" it.

 

James

[MarkFeld]

I also consider this to be "coin doctoring" and hope that the major grading companies will make concerted and sincere efforts to discourage it. By the way, grading such a coin (edited: as a Proof Indian cent) PR65 instead of PR66 as they might have graded it in the past, for example, wont do the job.

[truthteller]

TJ, EXCELLENT question, and one which I intended to address (but forgot).

 

I hadn't used this MS-70 in a long time, and forgot how foul the stuff really is. One thing I discovered is that it makes your skin feel "slimy". I'm convinced that it either is a lubricant, or contains one, and that's why it doesn't impart hairlines. An interesting thing is that on the bottle itself, it states that you must "rub" the MS-70 onto the coin; you can't just "dip" it.

 

James

 

 

MS 70 is not a lubricant. It's a detergent, much like the detergents you use in the washing machine. It feels slimey, but will degrade with water, as it should. Lubricants will not. Bronze is a very "hard" metal when struck, processed and oxidized. Hairlines are not easily formed on copper products as with silver or gold products by the nature of the alloy. You can soak bronze coinage and attain the blue effect, with no rubbing. However, you must wash the coin completely.

 

 

TRUTH

[EZ_E]

I hadn't used this MS-70 in a long time, and forgot how foul the stuff really is. One thing I discovered is that it makes your skin feel "slimy". I'm convinced that it either is a lubricant, or contains one, and that's why it doesn't impart hairlines. An interesting thing is that on the bottle itself, it states that you must "rub" the MS-70 onto the coin; you can't just "dip" it.

 

TJ, in my experience, that is not true so be careful!

 

I ruined some nice, circulated Walkers using MS70 and Q-tips. They becames hairlined bigtime and totally ruined them. Aahhhh, what boneheads we all were in our rookie days...

[TJ'S Coins]

EZ E were you referring to copper turning purple and blue or the use of Q-Tips?

 

When I was an adolescent I stupidly used silver and copper polish my mother had on many of my coins. As an adult I have regretted that action more than once. Fortunately the majority of coins that I worked on are junk circulated that might grade VG at best. However there were some Morgan and Peace dollars too.

 

At this point the only coins that I would dip are bullion ASE that I am doing some "natural toning" experiments on by putting them in a Kraft envelope inside of my hot, humid garage.

 

As for using Q-Tips, cloth, brillo pads, Dremel power tools or anything else, as they say in Greek, mh. ge,noito - may it never be!

[mgoodm3]

There are some flaws in all of the arguments that have stated that MS70 is actually creating the color rather than uncovering a toning layer under the grime of oxidation. We really have no proof of causality as of yet.

 

1. It doesn't change red copper appreciably, therefore it isn't reacting with the copper directly. It isn't creating the toning directly but could be changing the nature of the oxidation layer.

2. Many brown coins don't show this color change, why one and not another? Why don't circulated pieces show any change?

 

I would like to see a followup. Other detergents (goo-gone a detergent?) could be used to see if a similar reaction occurs or is it a specific proprerty of MS70?

[pendragon1998]

I hadn't used this MS-70 in a long time, and forgot how foul the stuff really is. One thing I discovered is that it makes your skin feel "slimy". I'm convinced that it either is a lubricant, or contains one, and that's why it doesn't impart hairlines. An interesting thing is that on the bottle itself, it states that you must "rub" the MS-70 onto the coin; you can't just "dip" it.

 

James

 

Likely the reason MS70 makes your skin feel slimy is because it is a basic solution (like bleach) Weak basic solutions break down (denature) the proteins found in your skin, essentially dissolving your skin slowly. The denaturing proteins are what make you feel slimy when touching MS70, the same as if you got household bleach on your fingers while washing clothes.

 

Interesting experiment - I can honestly say, however, that I didn't like a single coin you worked on better afterwards.

[gmarguli]

I think some of your results might have been even more dramatic, had you used proof coins and added heat to the process.

 

Blowtorching coins will produce amazing wild vibrant colors.

 

Please Mr. , who sure seems to know a lot about these chemical reactions, let us know what you know about heat.

 

Will it produce colors like this:

[truthteller]

I think some of your results might have been even more dramatic, had you used proof coins and added heat to the process.

 

Blowtorching coins will produce amazing wild vibrant colors.

 

Please Mr. , who sure seems to know a lot about these chemical reactions, let us know what you know about heat.

 

Will it produce colors like this:

 

 

 

I like that coin, looks original to me.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

 

I like that coin, looks original to me.

 

TRUTH

 

Really? For me there were quite a few troubling aspects that screamed out to me. Oh well, market acceptable.

[truthteller]

 

I like that coin, looks original to me.

 

TRUTH

 

Really? For me there were quite a few troubling aspects that screamed out to me. Oh well, market acceptable.

 

 

Appears to be oldtime Kraft envelope toning. I have seen many coins with this type of toning before the grading services.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[James_OldeTowne]

Gentlemen, with all due respect, can we please move the dicussion of the 1833 to a different thread? I was hoping we might keep this thread on-topic regardind MS-70 and copper.

 

James

[John Martinez]

There are some flaws in all of the arguments that have stated that MS70 is actually creating the color rather than uncovering a toning layer under the grime of oxidation. We really have no proof of causality as of yet.

 

1. It doesn't change red copper appreciably, therefore it isn't reacting with the copper directly. It isn't creating the toning directly but could be changing the nature of the oxidation layer.

2. Many brown coins don't show this color change, why one and not another? Why don't circulated pieces show any change?

 

I would like to see a followup. Other detergents (goo-gone a detergent?) could be used to see if a similar reaction occurs or is it a specific proprerty of MS70?

 

If numbers 2, 5, 8, and 10 did not change color, whether by removal or tone, I've got to make an appointment with my eye doctor.

[EZ_E]

EZ E were you referring to copper turning purple and blue or the use of Q-Tips?

 

The Q-tips hairlined the Walking Liberty half dollars. It does not turn silver colors, just removes the grime but it makes it entirely undesirable. I'd only use MS70 on AU or better coins. Use the Q-tip to dab the MS70 on the surface but use no abrasive motion. Then rinse and blot dry. For this niche, it has good results.

 

I used it on an unc. red-brown Lincoln and it did turn it a splotchy blue.

[EZ_E]

There are some flaws in all of the arguments that have stated that MS70 is actually creating the color rather than uncovering a toning layer under the grime of oxidation.

 

In my experience, IT CREATES IT.

[MarkFeld]

There are some flaws in all of the arguments that have stated that MS70 is actually creating the color rather than uncovering a toning layer under the grime of oxidation. We really have no proof of causality as of yet.

 

1. It doesn't change red copper appreciably, therefore it isn't reacting with the copper directly. It isn't creating the toning directly but could be changing the nature of the oxidation layer.

2. Many brown coins don't show this color change, why one and not another? Why don't circulated pieces show any change?

 

I would like to see a followup. Other detergents (goo-gone a detergent?) could be used to see if a similar reaction occurs or is it a specific proprerty of MS70?

 

Mark, I recently spoke to a very knowledgeable/informed collector who also has a background in chemistry. He is aware of at least some of the ingredients in MS 70 and informed me that the product does indeed react with and CHANGE the color of some copper coins. Hopefully he will post on the subject in the not too distant future.

 

I think some of your results might have been even more dramatic, had you used proof coins and added heat to the process.

 

Blowtorching coins will produce amazing wild vibrant colors.

 

Please Mr.... who sure seems to know a lot about these chemical reactions, let us know what you know about heat.

 

Greg, I am confident that you know (or at least, are virtually certain) that I don't mess with coins. So, if, by chance, your question was meant to insinate otherwise, it was dishonest on your part. I have, however, talked to people who know about heat, chemicals, "coin doctoring", etc., including the unnamed person above.

[MAULEMALL]

TJ, EXCELLENT question, and one which I intended to address (but forgot).

 

I hadn't used this MS-70 in a long time, and forgot how foul the stuff really is. One thing I discovered is that it makes your skin feel "slimy". I'm convinced that it either is a lubricant, or contains one, and that's why it doesn't impart hairlines. An interesting thing is that on the bottle itself, it states that you must "rub" the MS-70 onto the coin; you can't just "dip" it.

 

James

 

 

MS 70 is not a lubricant. It's a detergent, much like the detergents you use in the washing machine. It feels slimey, but will degrade with water, as it should. Lubricants will not. Bronze is a very "hard" metal when struck, processed and oxidized. Hairlines are not easily formed on copper products as with silver or gold products by the nature of the alloy. You can soak bronze coinage and attain the blue effect, with no rubbing. However, you must wash the coin completely.

 

 

TRUTH

Not entirelt true truth..Break Fast,B&B and even your more expensive hand soap are lubricant based.All rinse with water.

[MAULEMALL]

There are some flaws in all of the arguments that have stated that MS70 is actually creating the color rather than uncovering a toning layer under the grime of oxidation. We really have no proof of causality as of yet.

 

1. It doesn't change red copper appreciably, therefore it isn't reacting with the copper directly. It isn't creating the toning directly but could be changing the nature of the oxidation layer.

2. Many brown coins don't show this color change, why one and not another? Why don't circulated pieces show any change?

 

I would like to see a followup. Other detergents (goo-gone a detergent?) could be used to see if a similar reaction occurs or is it a specific proprerty of MS70?

 

Mark, I recently spoke to a very knowledgeable/informed collector who also has a background in chemistry. He is aware of at least some of the ingredients in MS 70 and informed me that the product does indeed react with and CHANGE the color of some copper coins. Hopefully he will post on the subject in the not too distant future.

 

I think some of your results might have been even more dramatic, had you used proof coins and added heat to the process.

 

Blowtorching coins will produce amazing wild vibrant colors.

 

Please Mr.... who sure seems to know a lot about these chemical reactions, let us know what you know about heat.

 

Greg, I am confident that you know (or at least, are virtually certain) that I don't mess with coins. So, if, by chance, your question was meant to insinate otherwise, it was dishonest on your part. I have, however, talked to people who know about heat, chemicals, "coin doctoring", etc., including the unnamed person above. I think he was refering to that Fark Meld fellow.

I am sure that you would NEVER sell a dipped or otherwise altered coin.

[EZ_E]

I don't mess with coins. So, if, by chance, your question was meant to insinate otherwise, it was dishonest on your part. I have, however, talked to people who know about heat, chemicals, "coin doctoring", etc., including the unnamed person above.

 

I attest to that fact! I have bought a number of coins from Mark over the years. I very rarely even mess with other dealers since it usually leads to disappointment. I have never returned nor regretted a purchase from Mark because, not only are the coins extremely solid for their grade, but he pre-screens them before he ever places them in his inventory.

 

With Mark's years of experience as a NGC grader and his decades in the coin field, I wouldn't take his statements lightly.

[gmarguli]

Blowtorching coins will produce amazing wild vibrant colors.

 

Please Mr.... who sure seems to know a lot about these chemical reactions, let us know what you know about heat.

 

Greg, I am confident that you know (or at least, are virtually certain) that I don't mess with coins. So, if, by chance, your question was meant to insinate otherwise, it was dishonest on your part. I have, however, talked to people who know about heat, chemicals, "coin doctoring", etc., including the unnamed person above.

 

I am very confident that you don't mess with coins. However, the discussion was centering on MS70 (something I freely admit to), yet heat keeps being mentioned by you and others across the street. Since much of this is directed at me, I felt that a little unfair. Why not mention hundreds of other chemicals that may change the color of coins? I'm getting a bunch of stuff lumped into the pile being pointed at me.

 

As for my playful jab at you, you're ethical to a fault! I just thought it humorous that someone who chose a chemist as their icon and keeps adding more to the plot might draw suspicion. Don't worry, I'm sure no one would suspect that an ex-lawyer and current coin dealer would be anything but of the highest ethics.

 

And in case ayone didn't get it, Mark is a wonderful coin dealer to be trusted 100%.

[MarkFeld]

Blowtorching coins will produce amazing wild vibrant colors.

 

Please Mr.... who sure seems to know a lot about these chemical reactions, let us know what you know about heat.

 

Greg, I am confident that you know (or at least, are virtually certain) that I don't mess with coins. So, if, by chance, your question was meant to insinate otherwise, it was dishonest on your part. I have, however, talked to people who know about heat, chemicals, "coin doctoring", etc., including the unnamed person above.

 

I am very confident that you don't mess with coins. However, the discussion was centering on MS70 (something I freely admit to), yet heat keeps being mentioned by you and others across the street. Since much of this is directed at me, I felt that a little unfair. Why not mention hundreds of other chemicals that may change the color of coins? I'm getting a bunch of stuff lumped into the pile being pointed at me.

 

As for my playful jab at you, you're ethical to a fault! I just thought it humorous that someone who chose a chemist as their icon and keeps adding more to the plot might draw suspicion. Don't worry, I'm sure no one would suspect that an ex-lawyer and current coin dealer would be anything but of the highest ethics.

 

And in case ayone didn't get it, Mark is a wonderful coin dealer to be trusted 100%.

Greg, I have no idea whether you use heat or not and did not mean to imply otherwise. I apologize if my comment read that way.

 

" Don't worry, I'm sure no one would suspect that an ex-lawyer and current coin dealer would be anything but of the highest ethics." Now THAT was some mighty fine "baiting" and excellent humor too - I very much liked and appreciated it. I am about to get on a plane to head home from Denver, so I am through posting to this thread unless specifically invited or "baited" back by Greg.

[MAULEMALL]

Blowtorching coins will produce amazing wild vibrant colors.

 

Please Mr.... who sure seems to know a lot about these chemical reactions, let us know what you know about heat.

 

Greg, I am confident that you know (or at least, are virtually certain) that I don't mess with coins. So, if, by chance, your question was meant to insinate otherwise, it was dishonest on your part. I have, however, talked to people who know about heat, chemicals, "coin doctoring", etc., including the unnamed person above.

 

I am very confident that you don't mess with coins. However, the discussion was centering on MS70 (something I freely admit to), yet heat keeps being mentioned by you and others across the street. Since much of this is directed at me, I felt that a little unfair. Why not mention hundreds of other chemicals that may change the color of coins? I'm getting a bunch of stuff lumped into the pile being pointed at me.

 

As for my playful jab at you, you're ethical to a fault! I just thought it humorous that someone who chose a chemist as their icon and keeps adding more to the plot might draw suspicion. Don't worry, I'm sure no one would suspect that an ex-lawyer and current coin dealer would be anything but of the highest ethics.

 

And in case ayone didn't get it, Mark is a wonderful coin dealer to be trusted 100%.

Greg, I have no idea whether you use heat or not and did not mean to imply otherwise. I apologize if my comment read that way.

 

" Don't worry, I'm sure no one would suspect that an ex-lawyer and current coin dealer would be anything but of the highest ethics." Now THAT was some mighty fine "baiting" and excellent humor too - I very much liked and appreciated it. I am about to get on a plane to head home from Denver, so I am through posting to this thread unless specifically invited or "baited" back by Greg.

Tell Greg betz hi for us

[Stanley]

Are we going to get a summary of the results? Were they inconclusive?

 

And what are we trying to prove? Is it MS70 exposes what is already covered or does MS70 chemically create vivid colors in particular Red, Blue, and Purple.

 

A few years ago I mistakenly partially turned a nice red 1968 S cent the same colors you are coming up with while trying to remove a few very small spots And I wasn’t using a torch or MS70. I still have the coin. So I can tell you how to turn the copper red, purple, and blue. I have only done this one time because I never was interested in a vivid purple cent piece.

[pontiacinf-migration]

wow, Ive been across the street for way to long

[MAULEMALL]

Thanks for your time and efforts, James.

 

My (brief) thoughts before I head over to the ANA show:

 

The application of MS70 looks to have caused changes in color and did NOT (as some with vested interests have claimed) merely bring out/reveal colors which were already present, but somehow hidden. That is consistent with other results I have seen and/or heard about.

 

I think some of your results might have been even more dramatic, had you used proof coins and added heat to the process.

I hope you called Mr Snow and told him of this irrefutable evidence that he is a Lying SOB coin docter from hell who should be strung up by his testicles......Well Did Ya?

 

Did anyone from across the street who answered the reference to this post??

 

You know Keets has a set....Did he call Mr Snow???

 

What about your buddy Mr Betz.....Is he going to camp out at mr Snows place of buisness and try to prevent his daily buisness??

 

Just wondering

[relicsncoins]

Speaking of detergents, when I havn't cleaned out my pants pockets and a few modern coins go through the washer, I have noticed some of the pennies take on a blue tint. I wonder if there is a simmilar component in MS70 and laundry detergents.

 

JJ