The Shocking Truth: You're Clueless. Period. (Not For The Faint of Heart)

[gmarguli]

Thanks for the offer Bruce, but I'm scared that Laura would just resell it to some other poor unsuspecting person without disclosing the doctoring. I've heard all about wannabe dealers and also heard he state that she had other buyers for this coin.

 

Actually, I'm going to send it to NGC to see if they feel it should be in a PF66 slab. I personally don't, but if they do I'm fine with it. The more I look at the coin, I think someone may have put a little Vaseline over the pin scratches to hide them. There is some discoloration on top of them.

 

The scratches can also be seen without a loupe. I'll forgive Laura... as long as she stays on her meds and floats away and stops taking shots at me.

[Swest-migration]

This has been some seriously fun reading. Fun because of all the difference of opinions. I have really enjoyed the AT vs NT debate..if AT even exists that is.

 

I started out as a member with NGC and fley the coup to PCGS. I now go between both camps . I really appreciate all the time people took to explain their own rational.

 

My own opinion or where I define AT is probably closer to Greg's (Doesn't believe in AT) than the other extreme. If someone is taking a risk to make a rare coin brilliant looking in order to add it to their collection or of course profit, I am not sure I care. I do hate the idea of ANYTHING destroying coins but I don't mind some who is flat chested using implants to shine .

 

And that is my defination of AT. The coin may not be a very desirable coin and someone is enhancing the coin. That definition stops at toning. I think anything that is done to purposely hide real flaws or issues with the coin that will appear in the future is totally inapropriate.

 

I have bought many expensive items I knew nothing about prior to my purchase..from my HDTV, computer, Audio components to my wife's wedding ring. I used all my research skills to learn prior to the purchase and then my people skills to find someone I was comfortable with. Why would I do anything different with coins?? I honestly can say I would NEVER buy a ring, HDTV, etc on ebay, so why would I EVER buy an expensive coin there?

 

So I also agree on that point about no hand holding. Hell, I got burned on a Morgan Dollar that I couldn't detect had been cleaned. I payed a few hundred bucks for it and feel like smacking myself, but I have learned from it!! Now how can I hide the cleaning and spruce up the coin so I can unload it for $1000+...Just kidding all .

 

Thanks for all the great reading, input, and well thought out comments!

 

Swest

[EZ_E]

even if I like you and you PM me and ask nicely

 

Greg, I didn't know that you liked people. This is an epiphanic moment for me. In all seriousness though, I have always appreciated your candor and I believe that it is a strong asset to our board.

 

 

Sums it up pretty good for me, too.

[EZ_E]

[Absolutely, postively false. Completely wrong. If the market wanted it altered, then the revelation that it had been altered would not affect the price. Unfortunately, that is not the case. If a coin turns out to be altered, its price drops dramatically

 

You're kidding yourself. The market wants plastic with lofty numbers. They don't want an original looking richly toned Barber half in MS65 plastic. The market wants that same coin stripped blast white in MS66 plastic. If it didn't, then the market wouldn't place such a high premium on it. Also, the vast majority of buyers cannot tell that a coin has been altered because most all they see are altered coins. A large number of dealers cannot tell as all they see are the finished product.

 

Not sure what market you continue to refer to. Myself, and other collectors who frequent these boards, routinely buy the lesser grade in lieu of lofty numbers on plastic as the lower graded coin offers tremendously more value. To assume everyone wants blast white and ultimate grades is foolish and arrogant.

Greg, if by "market" you mean dealers and registry participants who want to be tops, then I agree. But I am part of the market and I certainly do not want nor will purchase a dipped, low end coin. There is no value in it for me. I personally would avoid a coin like you described. I prefer high end for the grade, "original-looking" coins at the grade behind the exponential price jump.

 

You make apparent blanket statements that may cause others to assume that you are refering to all collectors. However, I infer from your use of "market" to refer only to the collector/investor who just cares only about numbers and the dealers who can max their profits. Personally, I would think that this is a minority market compared to some of the astute collectors that I have met on these boards.

[MAULEMALL]

This has been some seriously fun reading. Fun because of all the difference of opinions. I have really enjoyed the AT vs NT debate..if AT even exists that is.

 

I started out as a member with NGC and fley the coup to PCGS. I now go between both camps . I really appreciate all the time people took to explain their own rational.

 

My own opinion or where I define AT is probably closer to Greg's (Doesn't believe in AT) than the other extreme. If someone is taking a risk to make a rare coin brilliant looking in order to add it to their collection or of course profit, I am not sure I care. I do hate the idea of ANYTHING destroying coins but I don't mind some who is flat chested using implants to shine .

 

And that is my defination of AT. The coin may not be a very desirable coin and someone is enhancing the coin. That definition stops at toning. I think anything that is done to purposely hide real flaws or issues with the coin that will appear in the future is totally inapropriate.

 

I have bought many expensive items I knew nothing about prior to my purchase..from my HDTV, computer, Audio components to my wife's wedding ring. I used all my research skills to learn prior to the purchase and then my people skills to find someone I was comfortable with. Why would I do anything different with coins?? I honestly can say I would NEVER buy a ring, HDTV, etc on ebay, so why would I EVER buy an expensive coin there?

 

So I also agree on that point about no hand holding. Hell, I got burned on a Morgan Dollar that I couldn't detect had been cleaned. I payed a few hundred bucks for it and feel like smacking myself, but I have learned from it!! Now how can I hide the cleaning and spruce up the coin so I can unload it for $1000+...Just kidding all .

 

Thanks for all the great reading, input, and well thought out comments!

 

Swest

You mean to say that you are willing to accept personal responsibility for your own mistake

 

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

You mean to say that you are willing to accept personal responsibility for your own mistake

I don't have a problem with that concept. However, to be fair and consistent, those whom doctor coins in an attempt to profit by it and/or deceive buyers of such coins should take responsibility for THEIR actions as well. And they shouldn't simply place all of the blame on the buyers that didn't know what they were buying.

[EVillageProwler]

 

Good to see that some things never change. I didn't read the entire thread - just Greg's initial post and a smattering thrown in. I did catch Hoot's post and his 4 points, but admittedly didn't read it very carefully. Probably matches my opinion fairly closely.

 

I don't want to give my opinion, but do wish this bit of unsolicited advice:

 

My opinion of and feelings toward coins have evolved beyond just a reflection of technical knowledge. I try to listen with a wary but open mind and only offer my opinion sparingly and carefully.

 

EVP