The Shocking Truth: You're Clueless. Period. (Not For The Faint of Heart)

[gmarguli]

Let us assume that you have a Seated $ which was toned with chemicals and baked for twenty minutes, and you have another one that has been sitting in a Wayte Raymond album for twenty years. Let's say that if you quickly glance at both coins, they look the same.

 

Tom B is professionally trained as a chemist, so he can explain what I'm about to say much better than I can. I would think the baking & chemicals re the 20 minute coin are more unstable than the Wayte Raymond toning, which took twenty years. In other words, the coin with the album toning is likely to look the way it does now in a year or two. However, the "twenty minute coin" is far more likely to 'turn' more quickly, whether or not either or both coins are slabbed.

But that is just a guess. A dealer I frequent who has cleaned coins with MS70 and its predecessor for a LONG time has told me that the coins in his collection have not changed in appearance in over 20 years. You can also trace blue toned proof 1/2c & large 1c back over many years thru auction records and see that they have not changed either.

 

I had a coin in my collection that I sold to a friend. I'd guess it's been 5 years since it was cleaned. Last time I saw it (a few months ago) the coin had not changed a single tiny bit.

 

I would assume that as long as you remove all surface contaminants that the coin will not change at all. Metal reacts with its environment, so if your environment is clean, the metal should not change. TomB can correct me if he thinks this is wrong.

 

 

I've seen this re doctored RD copper. It looks fine when it comes out of the chemistry set, but a few months later, it's not RD any longer. While copper is a more reactive metal than silver, I think the same concept would hold re the aforementioned Seated $.

Red copper is a whole different issue. Doctored red copper frequently doesn't look 'right'. There are two common distinct looks to worked red copper that if you know what to look for, you can easily spot it.

 

 

 

 

 

The single most unstable thing on the market is freshly dipped coins. Way too many of these turn in slabs. Were is the concern over this? ....

Whether or not a "twenty minute coin" has been slabbed, I think it is the obligation of someone who knowingly sells such a coin, be it to a dealer or a collector, to fully disclose this fact as a condition of its sale. I don't care if we are talking about the person who 'created' the coin in the first place, or whether it is the tenth or one hundredth person who is selling it. To do otherwise, IMO, may open the seller of such coins to charges of concealment and / or misrepresentation of said coin(s).

Well, let’s take this from a different "devils advocate" angle. There is this make believe dealer - let's call him Fark Meld (Any similarities to persons living or dead is purely coincidental. No refunds or exchanges. Your mileage may vary.).

 

Fark is an honest and knowledgeable dealer. He frequently talks about the patina of coins he has for sale.

 

He's got these two coins on his web site (web site picked at total random, no relation to made up dealer Fark Meld):

 

 

He calls the commem untoned and the Walker color-free, free of splotches, haze, unattractive and/or uneven toning.

 

Now, based on the picture, description, and lack of mention of patina, I'm going to assume these coins are stripped. I may be wrong, but for purposes of this discussion, assume I am correct.

 

The coins are still attractive, but they have been doctored or at the very least it is highly likely that they have been doctored. There is no mention of this by Fark. Isn't this wrong? After all, the possibility of these coins turning in the slab from the dip is much higher than one that sat in an album for years. Has Fark concealed or misrepresented the above coins? Is Fark unethical for not mentioning this considering the potential problems that are lying ahead?

 

Does it matter if Fark wasn't the one who dipped it? If he has a strong suspicion about the coin being dipped (doctored!!!), shouldn't he reveal this to potential buyers and ask them to pass along this information to all future buyers? Or should the buyer be knowledgeable about what they are purchasing?

 

Based on what you said, you seem to feel that by not mentioning something that could cause a problem in the future (like the dip) is "concealment and / or misrepresentation of said coin(s)". Is it really? Or are you just drawing a line in the sand at what is OK to you, but where 100 other people would draw that line 100 other places?

[Elcontador]

"The single most unstable thing on the market is freshly dipped coins. Way too many of these turn in slabs. Were is the concern over this? ...."

 

Greg, please re-read my post. I said that I was very suspicious of newly slabbed coins in general, mainly for this reason.

 

Re the disclosure matter, I think full disclosure is necessary to maintain one's good name, because let's face it, that's an individual's most valuable asset.

 

I expect a dealer to disclose to me whether a coin has been dipped, or whether or not anything else has been done to it, to the best of his knowledge. I shouldn't have to ask the question.

 

This is how I do business. Ie., If I am preparing someone's tax return and he is asking me to take a position that IMO will increase the possibility of the return's being audited, while I am not legally obligated to disclose this, ethically, I feel I am required to do so.

 

One thing that really bothers me about numismatics is that while you are legally obligated to describe defects that are known - and will be successfully sued if they should have been known, but you as the seller didn't know about them - regarding homes and even used cars, there are no such requirements specifically relating to selling coins.

 

In light of the fact that many coins now are bring more money than used cars - indeed, some bring more money than houses these days - I find this to be completely unacceptable.

 

Greg, I really feel sellers of coins need to "kick this one into the gol," or else there may be some governmental regulations forcing them to do so in the not too distant future.

[Oldtrader3]

Coin collecting is losing it's luster (no pun intended!). Prices are too high and so is the risk. I have been collecting for (40+) years and submitting to TPG's for over (15) years. The stakes are getting too high, the player's chemistry sets too sophistocated, the numbers of "made" coins too common. The fun and wonder of it all is fast fading friends, despite spending years learning. I am tired of all manipulation and the con games. I am getting too old and see too few coins that have purchase value or appearance nearly approaching their price anymore. This whole greater price for lesser value, diminishing returns game will hurt the hobby eventually. It is a death spiral of ever concentric circles! Too many slabbed coins now turn bilious brown, bubonic black or urine yellow via amateur doctors.

[EZ_E]

Re the disclosure matter, I think full disclosure is necessary to maintain one's good name, because let's face it, that's an individual's most valuable asset.

 

I expect a dealer to disclose to me whether a coin has been dipped, or whether or not anything else has been done to it, to the best of his knowledge. I shouldn't have to ask the question.

 

I agree with this. As I have already mentioned, I recently got a proof 63 Barber Quarter from Pinnacle Rarities. I have purchase some excellent quality coins from them before so I have a fair degree of confidence in them. However, their photos on their website are terrible and undiagnostic. So, I get the coin and, albeit a very high end 63, it was dipped blast white. No mention was ever made of this fact. I'm keeping the coin because I do really like the coin for the grade but I now think less of the dealer for not revealing this fact. (As mentioned, I could make very little determination via the photos).

[Count_Erfit]

Mr. Yuk, is there a possibility that Pinnacle would not "know" it was treated in any manner prior to their purchase? If you like the coin, for the grade, I can't see a problem because you bought the coin...for the grade.

 

I'm really with GMarguli on this even if I parodied the thread. NOBODY ..KNOWS.

Coins ...are... reactive. I've had NCS to NGC "turn." So will everyone else. This isn't yet an empirical science and is too small a market probably ever to be.

 

Anyone spending MONEY for a coin should know certain things. Basic grading and the fact that anything under the sun could have happened in the last 200 years or seconds.

 

And like the coin or return it. It comes under "dealing with it" in whatever manner YOU choose.

 

Sulfur of Potash has been around a long time.

 

[Elcontador]

Court Erfit - NOT TRUE - FOR OPENERS, THE PEOPLE WHO ALTER THE SURFACES OF COINS AND THEN SELL THEM KNOW, AND SHOULD FULLY DISCLOSE WHAT THEY DID TO POTENTIAL BUYERS. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THEM NOT DOING THIS? I CERTAINLY DO.

[EZ_E]

Mr. Yuk, is there a possibility that Pinnacle would not "know" it was treated in any manner prior to their purchase? If you like the coin, for the grade, I can't see a problem because you bought the coin...for the grade.

 

I really like the coin. I think that it is a solid 64 and I got it for a 63 price so I have no remorse over the purchase.I would have returned it in a second if I didn't like it. My point was that the conservation was not disclosed nor could the fact necessarily be gleened from the photos although it could be infered.

 

I will still purchase from them and they still have my confidence but I will ask more questions on any future purchases.

[EZ_E]

Elcontador,

 

You've made an excellent point. Toning which occurs gradually over long periods of time will tone deeper into the surface of the coin instead of a mere superficial coating. Plus, once an oxide layer is formed, reactivity is minimized which will lead to a more stable coin.

 

Feel free to make any corrections or additions to my statement, Tom.

 

Another thing to keep in mind:

 

Conservation strips any protective oxidation layer from the coin laying its surface bare and leaving it prone to toning. I had a proof cameo Liberty Nickel professionally conserved and they did a great job at it. Now, 16 months later, it has toned in my Dansco album. Don't get me wrong, I love it even more now than before. It has taken on a homogenous champagne toning with some subtle violet toning around the rims. Point is, however, once the surfaces are stripped, it now becomes vulnerable to change. An old coin with a thick patina on it most likely will remain stable over time.

 

A 1861 ms63 half dime and a 1942 silver proof Jefferson conserved at the same time, however, has not taken on any toning.

[chinook]

Re the disclosure matter, I think full disclosure is necessary to maintain one's good name, because let's face it, that's an individual's most valuable asset.

 

I expect a dealer to disclose to me whether a coin has been dipped, or whether or not anything else has been done to it, to the best of his knowledge. I shouldn't have to ask the question.

 

I agree with this. As I have already mentioned, I recently got a proof 63 Barber Quarter from Pinnacle Rarities. I have purchase some excellent quality coins from them before so I have a fair degree of confidence in them. However, their photos on their website are terrible and undiagnostic. So, I get the coin and, albeit a very high end 63, it was dipped blast white. No mention was ever made of this fact. I'm keeping the coin because I do really like the coin for the grade but I now think less of the dealer for not revealing this fact. (As mentioned, I could make very little determination via the photos).

 

Dipping a silver coin is nothing like turning a copper coin blue. The silver coin was just returned to the look it had when it was minted. Copper was never blue when minted.

 

Removing toning is not even close to the addition of toning.

[Elcontador]

Chinook, an initial dip of a silver coin will get rid of the layer of oxidation / crud which has accumulated on its surfaces, as you stated. However, repeated dipping of a silver coin will strip its flow lines, giving you a shiny, sometimes 'sandblasted,' stripped coin without cartwheel luster (like most MS 65 & MS 66 Seated & Trade $s I see on the bourse floor at shows). Personally, I think coins like these should be bagged for "altered surfaces."

 

Agree with you re the rest of your comments.

[Stanley]

Chinook, an initial dip of a silver coin will get rid of the layer of oxidation / crud which has accumulated on its surfaces, as you stated. However, repeated dipping of a silver coin will strip its flow lines, giving you a shiny, sometimes 'sandblasted,' stripped coin without cartwheel luster (like most MS 65 & MS 66 Seated & Trade $s I see on the bourse floor at shows). Personally, I think coins like these should be bagged for "altered surfaces."

 

Agree with you re the rest of your comments.

 

Or, whatabout graded and noted on the holder

[chinook]

Chinook, an initial dip of a silver coin will get rid of the layer of oxidation / crud which has accumulated on its surfaces, as you stated. However, repeated dipping of a silver coin will strip its flow lines, giving you a shiny, sometimes 'sandblasted,' stripped coin without cartwheel luster (like most MS 65 & MS 66 Seated & Trade $s I see on the bourse floor at shows). Personally, I think coins like these should be bagged for "altered surfaces."

 

Agree with you re the rest of your comments.

 

Yes I agree 100%. I was referring to a one time dip as may have happened with Victor's coin from Pinnacle. An overdipped coin is a dead coin.

[EZ_E]

I got off on a tangent, Chinook. I wouldn't compare a AT coin with a dip either. We were just relating it to disclosure.

[Hoot]

I've been very, very busy lately and am now on travel. When this post was first put up, I read it quickly and thought, " Greg is one gutsy person who sure can stir things up with the truth." What's more, Greg has a knack for teasing out (or goading, if you prefer) opinions from people, even when he takes an unpopular stance to do so, risking his own good reputation. These things known, I feel very comfortable with Greg forming a thoughtful argument and stating a list of simple truths. Greg is honest in the very fiber of his being. Ask him a question (in person, at least) and he will tell you the answer. His basic tenet in life, I know from my contact with him over the years, is that he is honest and never deceitful.

 

Now, I've reread his initial post and only a smattering of posts through this thread. It's a mess for several reasons: (1) We're not all in a room together talking like normal human beings. We're posting written words that can take on a huge number of intonations, etc. What we write is incomplete for thought and conveyance of intellectual and emotional content. These failures act to diminish the quality of each segue and divergence from the initial tenets of the list Greg posted. (2) We all have our own agendas. Personal mores and ethics are at stake here and this forum is lousy for the expression of them. We should endeavor to not insert so much of our personal agenda when taking shots at another person or we will simply be in violation of our "holier than thou" sensibilities. We can all agree that we'd each like to know the history of our coins, but the fact is that we can't. The person passing them on can say that the coin has been conserved, but the necessity of that onerous and burdensome forbearance is a personal choice in this hobby, like it or not. The coin game is simply not like professions that have trade rules involved that place direction and limitations on behaviour. So, spend your money as you please, and understand that you are always at a level of risk. (3) Few people here have the technical expertise to talk about toning in terms of chemistry, optics, and the complexity of molecular reactions that are occurring on an atomic level. So, we should err on the side of caution thereof, lest we look like insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. (4) This is not a fruitful or healthy debate. There is too much assumption, mud slinging, and insipid arguing taking place for this to have grown into a healthy debate. Again, there is such a basic lack of complete and healthy communication, that straying from the clear and simple intent of the initial thread has served only to get people riled up who otherwise might come to civil agreement over a number of related issues.

 

Greg said a few things that I'd like to point to from each of his major points:

 

"There is only market acceptable and market unacceptable toning."

 

Yup. Natural processes are sometimes slow, sometimes not. Put a coin next to a Yellowstone sulfer spring for a day and you'll have a black NT coin. So what - it's market unacceptable. The process of a coin toning imparts certain features. Some are acceptable and discernable, and some are not acceptable, and also discernable. The only wrecked coins are the ones that look lousy or that will change to a lousy look in time due to the processes imparted to their surfaces. The number of such processes is innumerable, so it's not worth talking about. Personally, I like certain looks, album toning, for instance. Can it be mimicked? Yes. Can it be done quickly without long-term harm to the coin? Yes. Can a person harm a coin by sticking it in a Whitman album for 20 years? Yes. Bla, bla, bla.

 

"You just assume a certain look is original.

 

True for non-moderns that you have not owned since they came from the Mint, etc. And actually, this is quite an important point. Too much to say here. Read Penny Whimsy by William Sheldon.

 

The grading services are there to guarantee the authenticity of a coin and give you an idea of the grade of the coin. They don't tell you the quality of the coin... They are giving their opinion of a coin in the now..."

 

And market acceptable is a weird thing. In EAC, market acceptable is a VF20 details, F12 net A. What the hell? A market acceptable net graded coin. This is a practice that has been long-forgotten, even though people are vaguely familiar with it. All coins are market acceptable at their price.

 

"Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow."

 

A little divergence into the psychology of group thinking. Don't be a follower of anyone but your own good sense, and work to improve it constantly. Meanwhile, stop acting like the mayor in Nightmare Before Christmas. (Watch the movie.)

 

"Buy what you like. Period."

 

Could not agree more. Need to know the price? Work on your knowledge.

 

"That’s life and happens in every aspect of life. You jump into stuff you know nothing about and wonder what happened. So what. Who is to blame?

 

Educate yourself. Period."

 

Self-responsibility is a tough lesson for all of us.

 

"Don’t point fingers unless you’re looking in a mirror."

 

Always err on the side of the caution that you know that you should exercise due to your level of committment and willingness to take risks.

 

Now, for those of you buying coins from Greg...

 

I have bought many coins from Greg. The ones I did not like, I sent back and he happily refunded my money. We are still on good terms. Greg knows that you are buying sight-unseen from him, unless you're standing next to him. Even so, if you bought a coin from his hand and decided to return it in a week, he'd not even ask you why. Greg is about as open, honest, and reasonable as you can get, and in an industry where that's not always true, he's not the enemy.

 

Last thing I'll say is that there are many on the inside of this industry that know who the true professionals are who can accurately and professionally "help" problem or ugly coins. Those people are not considered "coin doctors." This term is completely out of hand, as are the accusations that accompany it. Most are from ignorance, some from fear. Again, endeavoring to have a thorough understanding of what you're doing in the hobby will aid you greatly. So, "cutting it out" with the mudslinging and name calling will go a long way to foster the cause of a better hobby.

 

I'm done with this thread and won't return to post, although I may read more. I'm on vacation for 10 days and will be lucky to look in once here tomorrow, then nada.

 

I wish you all well, and thanks to Greg for his honesty. I can also honestly say that I don't think Greg was tactful in many of his original statements and otherwise, but I can take the admixture of language, as I understand the inception.

 

Hoot

[MAULEMALL]

Thanks hoot....Enjoy your vacation..

[Excaliber]

Well said Hoot. VERY well said.

[MikeKing]

great post HOOT

[Coin]

Truth hurts . If the shoe fits , wear it. Stating the obvious is not always the same obvious in other folks minds.

I like reading Greg's comments and find many to be interesting . He does seem to get to the point .

 

No offense taken . I agree a lot with what James_EarlyUs has to say as well and agree with the comment about #2 in his reply.

 

Keep in mind , that not everyone here is simply just a hobbyist. Some are coin-vestors . Some (like myself) are long time hybrids (collect/hoard/ buy&sell,Etc.)

It is hard to say one thing that applies to all .

 

The points made actually seemed quite obvious to me , but then , I guess from the amount of whinning posts (seems to be less of those on this site , compared to other sties) , Greg may have gotten a little tired of the mind-numbing groaning posts.

 

I have no idea of what his motivation was , and the delivery was a bit 'in the trenches' , but the points are valid .

 

I often wonder why people who do not like 'slabbed' TPG holders and coins hang around a TPG sponsored site ( not directed to Greg here /speaking in general) , but after having been here a while have come to the conclusion that it is for the information and shared comaraderie(sp?) and the fact that one can actually learn a thing or two from the shared experiences here , and the coin is the common denominator , not always the central focus/topic. I've been around the 'hobby' for only about 32 years and , I still have not learned all there is to know , and have made some of the stupid mistakes , but have learned from them .

I only hope a newly arrived member does not take the gist of this post wrong and can jump over the learning curve a little and get the big picture of what some of the 'old hands' consider obvious. My dos Centavos . -John

[Elcontador]

Hoot, while agree there are limits re communication on the internet, that should not preclude dealing with this issue, which is IMO destroying our hobby more and more as the days go by. One of the reasons this is happening is that the standards which govern my and most other professions / trades and business are IMO conspicuously absent in numismatics.

 

If you buy a coin for $200,000, you accept the coin as is. If it's in a first world slab and there's an issue re its authenticity, you can probably get your money back. Otherwise, unless it 'turns' in the slab, you're SOL.

 

No other purchase comes to mind where you can pay so much and have so little recourse if there is a problem. What bothers me is that I see no effort going forward to change this. The attitude I see is as long as people are selling coins and making money, who cares?

 

This all ties into Greg's OP.

 

"1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period."

 

Simply not true. If a person does something to artificially / enhance the surfaces of a coin, it is artificially toned. This is contrasted with getting rid of gunk on the surfaces of a coin to merely restore the surfaces to how they were before the gunk formed on them.

 

Someone who does not understand this point does not understand what is artificial toning, and IMO is buying coins at his own peril. If some powers that be or whomever doesn't see it this way, than I do not feel they are qualified to comment in this matter and I shall continue to ignore in this case, their very loud silence in this matter.

 

2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.

 

A bit harsh, but I'll rephrase my answer a bit. I know what an uncirculated Capped Bust Quarter SHOULD look like. I also know what a properly dipped uncirculated Capped Bust Quarter SHOULD look like. Either is acceptable to me. If it is not one or the other, I don't want it.

 

I think the word 'original' is a poor choice of terms, as IMO, there are plenty of acceptable uncirculated type coins out there which have been dipped. If they have been dipped, they aren't original. I think it's more helpful to say that one should know what a (fill in the blank) series coin of (fill in the blank grade) should look like before considering buying it.

 

If a doctor wants to create the kind of toning you see on some Unc. Walkers on late date Capped Bust Halves, and I've seen many of them lately, you can keep them. I'm not interested.

 

3) The grading services should NOT be the last line of defense against questionable coins. Period.

 

I agree. I don't like most slabbed coins which I've seen, which is why I have been looking for an acceptable Barber Half in MS 65 or MS 66 for the last three years.

 

4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.

 

Unnecessarily harsh and unwarranted. "Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins." They are only the same coins if you haven't learned something important about them which previously was concealed or unknown.

 

If you see a house that you are considering buying and right before you make an offer, you discover that it needs to be seismically retrofitted, although the house may APPEAR the same to you, it's not worth the same amount of money you were considering spending on it before you discovered this fact.

 

An informed buyer can't say whether he likes something or not until he has as much information as possible about it. A coin is not the same to me if someone conceals some important facts about it. Ie., I saw an attractive slabbed type coin in a first world holder, but when I found out it was baked, it was no longer attractive to me at any price.

 

5) Buy what you like. Period.

 

Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right? If the answer to those two questions is yes, buy it. Why do you need the validation of others? Nothing more needs to be said.

 

Plenty more needs to be said. IMO, anyone who doesn't have a second set of eyes look at what is to him an expensive purchase, is a fool. If I like a coin, and the "second set of eyes likes it," I don't care what anyone else thinks about it.

 

6) Coins are a business. Learn about what you’re spending your money on. Period.

You jump into stuff you know nothing about and wonder what happened. So what. Who is to blame? Educate yourself. Period.

 

Can't argue with that.

 

Shocked that the blue toned Indian was cleaned with MS70 or before MS70, ammonia. Whose fault is that?

 

I wouldn't buy a coin like that because IMO, it has been artificially toned.

 

I know that blast white Unc. Barbers have been dipped. If I like them, I buy them.

 

Shocked that a silver commemorative from this year that is toned in wild rainbows turns out to have been made. Whose fault is that?

 

No argument here.

 

Shocked that the raw key date without any of the well know correct diagnostics you purchased is counterfeit. Whose fault is that?

 

Only a pinche pendejo would be shocked here.

 

Shocked that the 1811 Trade dollar you purchased off eBay from a private feedback seller in China is fake. Whose fault is that?

 

I ignore E-Bay and would never buy a coin on it under any circumstances.

 

Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.

 

I know. Many of them have been slabbed and I would never buy any of them.

 

Fact: Most blue toned Indians have been curated with MS70.

 

See my comments above re blue toned IHCs.

 

Fact: Most wildly toned ultra modern silver coins are “made”.

 

I don't collect moderns.

 

Fact: All raw key date coins without the correct diagnostics are counterfeit.

 

See my pinche pendejo comment above.

 

Fact: All 1811 Trade dollars are counterfeit.

 

Ditto re pinche pendejos.

 

The above is well known throughout the industry. Ask your average dealer. None of this info has ever been hidden.

 

Well, I know the above, and this information can be obtained. There's a big difference re voluntary disclosure and something not being hidden, ie., not saying anything and hoping a buyer won't notice. That's why they have "sell by" dates on perishables, because some of them don't start to stink before you should throw them out.

 

The fact that YOU failed to take the time to learn is YOUR problem. Don’t blame others. Don’t get all righteous. Don’t point fingers unless you’re looking in a mirror.

 

There are a lot of people buying coins who probably shouldn't be buying them. But that doesn't excuse taking advantage of their ignorance. I could change many people quite a bit more for my services and they wouldn't know the difference, but I like to sleep at night.

 

I’ve seen some [embarrassing lack of self control] about people saying how NGC is slabbing AT coins. You’re insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. Clueless insufficiently_thoughtful_persons! How many of you have held one of these coins in your hand? Does it look AT to you? Come on, you’re the self-proclaimed experts. Look at the coin.

 

I'm far from an expert, but I've seen far too many AT'd coins in both PCGS & NGC holders. Heat treated Liberty Nickels, Purple toned Seated Halves and a purple toned Classic Half Cent, "questionably toned" late date CBHs....would you like me to continue?

 

How many blue toned Indians are out there? A few thousand is my guess. How many are slabbed? I’d guess around a thousand. They’re slabbed by all the services. Excluding NGC from this statement, before the original thread a couple months ago was posted, I had spoken to graders at two of the other services about blue Indians. Point blank I asked them about them. They were 100% knowledgeable about MS70 being used on them and still fine with slabbing them. Market acceptable.

 

Might be market acceptable to THEM, but then again, I don't like most slabbed coins I see. They aren't market acceptable to me, and that's all I care about.

 

Don’t like them, don’t buy them, but don’t whine like a little girl that you’re not happy with this. Go start your own grading service and get off the [embarrassing lack of self control] of the grading services.

 

If the grading services wish to continue being relevant to the hobby, they should deal with issues like this one very seriously.

 

I'm done now.

[zrlevin]

Very nice post, Elcontador!

[MarkFeld]

Excellent post, Jeff!

[truthteller]

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

"1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period."

 

Simply not true. If a person does something to artificially / enhance the surfaces of a coin, it is artificially toned.

 

Like stick the coins in an old Wayte Raymond album or Kraft envelope? Perhaps stick the coin in an album and leave it in a hot and humid place?

 

People are just drawing lines in the sand based on their personal opinions and wanting everyone else to agree. We like things nice and neat in life. Black or white. Right or wrong. Real or fake. Too bad most things fall into the middle. Without knowing the 100% complete history, you can only look at today.

 

 

 

2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.

 

A bit harsh, but I'll rephrase my answer a bit. I know what an uncirculated Capped Bust Quarter SHOULD look like. I also know what a properly dipped uncirculated Capped Bust Quarter SHOULD look like. Either is acceptable to me. If it is not one or the other, I don't want it.

 

Jeff, I'm impressed. Never once in all the times I met you did I think you were 170+ years old. Damn you look good for your age!

 

You know what you THINK an original uncirculated Capped Bust Quarter SHOULD look like. Most people in this hobby think they know because that is all they see. If you see something enough and are told it is original, then it becomes original. If you're happy calling it original, then it is original. The fact is that you don't know. No one does. We're all just guessing. If it's market acceptable, then we can call it original.

 

Would you like a nice Peacock Ike? Don't worry, they're original.

 

 

The above is well known throughout the industry. Ask your average dealer. None of this info has ever been hidden.

 

Well, I know the above, and this information can be obtained. There's a big difference re voluntary disclosure and something not being hidden, ie., not saying anything and hoping a buyer won't notice. That's why they have "sell by" dates on perishables, because some of them don't start to stink before you should throw them out.

 

How about this: You're walking the floor at Long Beach and see a coin in a case. You look at it and ask the dealer how much. He gives you a price that is OK with you. You go grab another pair of eyes and he looks at the coin. He thinks it is fine. You buy it. Should that dealer have held your hand and before selling you the coin said, "By the way, that coin was in an MS64 slab before. It took me 4 resubmissions before getting it into an MS65. I had to lighten the toning as it was took dark to get an MS65, but it sure looks original to me."?

 

Or how about, "the coin looks great to me, but it came from a super dealer in Chicago who (cough) always seems to have these wonderfully toned coins. "?

 

Sorry, but there is no hand holding in life. Educate yourself and make your own decisions. Ask questions of the seller if you need more answers, but don't come back the next day wagging your finger because the seller didn't tell you their life story.

 

We don't need voluntary disclosure in all aspects of life. We need voluntary education by buyers if they want to know all the answers.

[EZ_E]

 

 

 

We don't need voluntary disclosure in all aspects of life. We need voluntary education by buyers if they want to know all the answers.

 

 

...and how shall they hear without a preacher? Roman 10:14

[supertooth]

Greg----I simply cannot agree with some of your opinions in the manner in which you state them. You say that "there is no hand holding in life". I firmly believe that there definitely can and should be hand holding in the coin collecting business. The use of an apprenticeship for example. A YN or an older new person in the hobby would do well to tag along as an apprentice to a seasoned collector. That mentor could provide most valuable information as well as a hands on approach that would definitely advance the new collector's skills.

 

You also say that "we don't need voluntary disclosure in all aspects of life". I say that we do need voluntary disclosures in the coin business. I will use a pocketwatch example. Many, many years ago I was looking for a 'solid gold' ladies pocket watch as a Christmas present for my wife to wear. I went to an older jeweler in a little town about 20 miles away who had a reputation as an honest jeweler. He showed me two ladies watches. He had no idea that I, being a dentist, knew immediately that the one watch was solid gold while the other one was not. I allowed him to explain it to me----which he did. And, after he had finished, I asked if he would take a check for the solid gold one----absolutely no dickering on the price? He was morally sound and had told me the truth. Personally, I think that coin dealers ought to do the same. The gentleman had made his profit but had also maintained his reputation as an honest jeweler. I didn't have to be as smart as he was about the watches. He simply was a man of sound moral fiber because he disclosed the truth about the watches. It should be that way with the coin business. We need "A level playing field". The fact of a YN or an older person new to the hobby or a less educated middle level collector "SHOULD" make no difference in the coin dealer's honesty level. As Elcontador most abtly put it "I could charge many people quite a bit more for my services and they wouldn't know the difference, but I like to sleep at night". Telling the truth about their coins should be a fundamental attribute in any dealer's approach to selling.

 

And finally, as again Elcontador states "If a person does something to artifically/ enhance the surfaces of a coin, it is artifically toned". I ask this simple question. Why do those who AT coins do it? The simple answer is so that they can sell the coins at a price above what the coins would normally be worth without anything having been done to them. They AT them to 'trick' the customer into thinking that the coins are worth more money than they really are worth. Never once have I ever heard anyone stating that they ATed any coins to put them into their own collections. They only AT them and then try to get them into TPGS holders in order to sell them for "EXTRA" profit. Naturally, somebody might like to keep a pretty one----but, otherwise, it is done for no other reason than to make "EXTRA" bucks. These opinions are strictly my own. People can agree or disagree with them. We all have a right to our own opinions. Bob [supertooth]

[MunkyMan95]

I agree with most of what you said Bob, but about someone who AT's coins. Some guys do it for experiment on different methods of changing the color of coins, and never intend to sell them. Some just like the pretty colors that can be made. And yes, still others tone coins for profit, but not all. Just pointing that out.

[EZ_E]

What Chad said is true. If some junk coins that would be body bagged anyway could be improved then I say go for it.

 

p.s. Bruce Lee's Seated Liberty Half is a perfect example.

[jom]

he simple answer is so that they can sell the coins at a price above what the coins would normally be worth without anything having been done to them. They AT them to 'trick' the customer into thinking that the coins are worth more money than they really are worth. Never once have I ever heard anyone stating that they ATed any coins to put them into their own collections. They only AT them and then try to get them into TPGS holders in order to sell them for "EXTRA" profit.

 

How about the case where a guy dips his coin to "sell the coin at a price above what the coin would normally be worth"? How is that any different but it's somehow, and IMO hypocritically, acceptable in the market.

 

As to the disclosures of selling a coin: I would imagine that the dealer selling said material is using the fact that the coin has been slabbed as a sign of market acceptibility. The TPG's came about to try to solve the issue of pricing of coins and let a third party decide the value. So why then should a dealer tell you it was enhanced and/or dipped and sent thru the service 12 times before it got the MS65 designation? Isn't the fact it was slabbed ENOUGH? If not, then maybe Greg is right? Shouldn't the buyer be ultimately responsible for their purchase? I mean, the TPG's isn't going to tell you how many times the coins was put thru nor should you expect the seller. Hell, he might not even know. If he did and lied how could you PROVE it? What if the coin was dipped in 1921?

 

The bottom line is that as a buyer YOU are ultimately responsible for your purchase so go about it like you'd buy anything else. Buy what you LIKE and at the PRICE you LIKE. Otherwise move on to the next piece and quit letting outside influences (TPG's, dealers, dealer newsletters etc) dictate what you LIKE.

 

jom

[Elcontador]

Greg, thanks for responding so quickly on this matter.

 

"Like stick the coins in an old Wayte Raymond album or Kraft envelope? Perhaps stick the coin in an album and leave it in a hot and humid place?

 

People are just drawing lines in the sand based on their personal opinions and wanting everyone else to agree. We like things nice and neat in life. Black or white. Right or wrong. Real or fake. Too bad most things fall into the middle. Without knowing the 100% complete history, you can only look at today."

 

I respectfully disagree. If you put a coin in a Wayte Raymond album, or in a Kraft envelope on the window sill, nature is still "doing it's thing." If you're putting chemicals on a coin or putting it into an oven, the coin is being altered artificially.

To me, this is the crux of what is, and what is not natural toning.

 

As a matter of first impression, I would think the baked or otherwise artificially alterred coin is less stable. Ie., it is far more likely to 'turn' in the holder. This is why I try to avoid newly slabbed coins. I am more concerned what the coin will look like six months or a year from now than how it looks today.

 

People like Tom B who is an educated professional in this area can comment on this subject more articulately than I can.

 

"You know what you THINK an original uncirculated Capped Bust Quarter SHOULD look like. Most people in this hobby think they know because that is all they see. If you see something enough and are told it is original, then it becomes original. If you're happy calling it original, then it is original. The fact is that you don't know. No one does. We're all just guessing. If it's market acceptable, then we can call it original."

 

Have to respectfully disagree again on numerous points. The only people I rely on for information are people that I know are being straight with me. Otherwise I try and look at a lot of coins. As I've said earlier, I am fine with properly dipped coins, and the older the coin, the more likely it has been dipped.

 

Greg, a lot of this stuff is rather straightforward to me. Please use my example of Unc. Capped Bust Halves having toning that you see on 1940s vintage Unc. Walkers. IMO, the CBHs like that are to be avoided. It doesn't matter what you want to call the coin. A CBH toned like that is almost certainly AT and I don't want it. Ditto re a Capped Bust Quarter that is blast white like a 1940s vintage Merc.

 

The fact that I don't know a particular coin's history has nothing to do with whether or not is acceptable to me. I don't care what is acceptable to PCGS, NGC, or is "market acceptable" to anyone else. The referenced purple toned Seated Half and Classic Half Cent were apparently market acceptable to the TPGs, because they slabbed these coins. To me, they were / are AT, are ruined coins, and are not acceptable under any circumstances.

 

"How about this: You're walking the floor at Long Beach and see a coin in a case. You look at it and ask the dealer how much. He gives you a price that is OK with you. You go grab another pair of eyes and he looks at the coin. He thinks it is fine. You buy it. Should that dealer have held your hand and before selling you the coin said, "By the way, that coin was in an MS64 slab before. It took me 4 resubmissions before getting it into an MS65. I had to lighten the toning as it was took dark to get an MS65, but it sure looks original to me."?

 

Or how about, "the coin looks great to me, but it came from a super dealer in Chicago who (cough) always seems to have these wonderfully toned coins. "?

 

I'll qualify my answer. If the guy told me "it was in a 4 holder and I had to resubmit it four times to make the 5," that would have no impact on how much I liked the coin. If he told me, "I had to dip the coin to get rid of some gunk on the surfaces for it to make the 5," I'd also be fine with that.

 

However, to me, "lightening the toning" is artificially toning, and is unacceptable to me. It might be fine for someone else. Chances are, between my looking at the coin, and my second pair of eyes checking it out, one or both of us would spot this artificial toning and I would not buy the coin. Is it possible that both of us could overlook such a coin? Yes, but IMO, it's not very likely.

 

People I know in the business know who artificially tone coins and steer me away from these people and their work.

 

"Sorry, but there is no hand holding in life. Educate yourself and make your own decisions. Ask questions of the seller if you need more answers, but don't come back the next day wagging your finger because the seller didn't tell you their life story.

 

We don't need voluntary disclosure in all aspects of life. We need voluntary education by buyers if they want to know all the answers."

 

Greg, for someone was abandoned by his / her parents at an early age and had to live on the streets and managed to survive, I'd agree that there is no hand holding in life. I don't think that applies to many people, if any, who are reading this thread.

 

Educating oneself and making one's own decisions is an important part of being an adult and a functioning member of what passes for our civilization. However, when I ask someone a question, I EXPECT an honest answer.

 

If I feel such person is not being honest with me, I will not do business with him / her. II've thrown people out of my office on occasion whom I felt were not being honest with me.

 

I don't want to know a coin dealer's life story, I just want honest answers, not errors or (intentional) omissions. In this regard, I advise people to be less in a hurry to purchase coins and be more concerned with the personal integrity of the people with whom they conduct business.

 

I am also a runner and I see parallels in that both running and coin collecting are often very addictive. It's easy to exercise bad judgement, try to run a race injured and try to get away with it. I've done this and wasn't able to run a step for six months as a result. Never made that mistake again.

 

Similarly, it's tempting to buy that coin that "doesn't look quite right, but I've been looking for one for six months, and maybe I'm being overly critical." I agree with you in that many people who collect coins should exercise far more self-control before taking out their hard earned cash or writing that check for a coin (or some coins).

[gmarguli]

I respectfully disagree. If you put a coin in a Wayte Raymond album, or in a Kraft envelope on the window sill, nature is still "doing it's thing." If you're putting chemicals on a coin or putting it into an oven, the coin is being altered artificially.

To me, this is the crux of what is, and what is not natural toning.

 

Sorry, but this is the exact same argument debated before. It's all about time. Who says 5 decades is OK, but 5 seconds isn't? A silver eagle stuck in a store front window can tone in a matter of days. That same coin in an album may take years. What's the difference? Is one AT and one NT? To everyone? There is no universally accepted definition of AT/NT using time...and there likely never will be because it's impossible to define.

 

As for nature taking its course, exactly where in nature does refined and mixed metals come in contact with pulverized sawdust mixed with bleach and sulfur? Many people could easily argue that sticking a coin in one of those albums and it tones over 20 years is not natural.

 

 

The fact that I don't know a particular coin's history has nothing to do with whether or not is acceptable to me.

 

Agreed. However, acceptable does not equate to original. People are talking about original this and original that. My point is no one really knows original. That word should be removed from the coin dictionary. We all know acceptable, but none of us know original.