The Shocking Truth: You're Clueless. Period. (Not For The Faint of Heart)

[gmarguli]

This is directed at nobody in particular and not only related to blue Indians. I understand the harsh approach will turn off many. Too [embarrassing lack of self control] bad!

 

With all the babble and finger pointing going on, there are some things that need to be driven into everyone's skull. Read and understand the following and you’ll be better off in this hobby.

 

1) There is no such thing as Artificial Toning. There is just toning. Period.

 

There is no accepted definition of Artificial Toning. Everyone has a different opinion. There is only market acceptable and market unacceptable toning. Deal with it!

 

Stick a coin in a sulfur laden album and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a box with sulfur match heads all around, it's AT.

 

Stick a coin in a potato sack to hide from robbers and it tones, it's NT. Stick a coin in a potato sack to tone it and it tones, it's AT.

 

Bull [embarrassing lack of self control]! It's all semantics. And please don't say it is the intent. Unless you can read minds, you don't know the intent. And intent really doesn't matter. Look at the freakin' coin now. Like it or dislike it. That's the only question!

 

 

2) There is no such thing as an original coin - at least not one that is more than a few years old. Period.

 

You say you like original coins that aren't messed with. You sound like a insufficiently_thoughtful_person. Have you owned the coin since the second it came off the dies? If not, you don't know if it is original. Don't pretend you do.

 

Making coins look their best has been done since the first coin collector was born. Deal with it. You have no idea what original looks like. You just assume a certain look is original. Here's an insane thought: Try talking to people who know things! You'd be stunned to know what can be done to coins (or comics, cards, vases, paintings, cars, etc).

 

Recently there was a thread across the street showing a Seated quarter that went from toned MS65 to blast white MS66. A bunch of wankers cried about the loss of yet another original coin. Yet, none of them stepped up to buy the original coin. Lots of talk, but all of it hypocritical bull [embarrassing lack of self control]. Practically everyone of the wankers there would have dipped that coin had they had the balls to risk $5K.

 

Fact: Coins are minted in metal. Metal is very reactive. It gets pretty and it gets ugly. When it gets ugly, owners try to make it less ugly by using chemicals on them. We all like pretty coins. Some of us are just too clueless to understand that pretty might not be original.

 

Don’t like the above, then buy a proof set from the mint. Most non-modern collector quality coins have been messed with at least once. Slabbed, raw, whatever, it doesn't matter. My estimate is 80% of non-modern collector quality coins in slabs have been messed with. The other 20% probably wasn't worth it.

 

 

3) The grading services should NOT be the last line of defense against questionable coins. Period.

 

They're not your mommy! Learn for yourself what is good/bad to you. The grading services are there to guarantee the authenticity of a coin and give you an idea of the grade of the coin. They don't tell you the quality of the coin. Stop whining if you see something in their slab you don't like. Start your own grading company and do it your way. Stop your [embarrassing lack of self control] whining! They’re grading 4-5 million coins a year. They must be doing something right, yet you, Joe “State Quarter Collector”, who has submitted 4 coins in their life feel compelled to tell them what they’re doing wrong.

 

The grading services do an exceptional job of screening out bad coins. They really do! They are giving their opinion of a coin in the now (market acceptable), not based on what it looked like before. What do you care what it looked like before? Oh, I forgot, you like "original coins" (See point #2).

 

 

4) You're not experts. You're hypocrites. Period.

 

Stop oohing and aahing over coins today and bashing them tomorrow. They're the same coins. You know, little round pieces of metal with images and words stamped on them.

 

I know, now you know something and your opinion has change. It was pretty last week, but awful this week. Screw you! It's the SAME coin. Stop your whiny person_without_enough_empathying! You either like it or don't. Stop changing your opinion.

 

 

5) Buy what you like. Period.

 

Do you like the look of it? Is it priced right? If the answer to those two questions is yes, buy it. Why do you need the validation of others? Nothing more needs to be said.

 

 

6) Coins are a business. Learn about what you’re spending your money on. Period.

 

Ever hear “Buy the book before the coin”? Sure you have. Did you? Of course not. People spend their hard earned money before learning and end up unhappy. Boo hoo [embarrassing lack of self control] hoo! That’s life and happens in every aspect of life. You jump into stuff you know nothing about and wonder what happened. So what. Who is to blame?

 

Educate yourself. Period.

 

Shocked that the blast white Barber half turns out to have been dipped. Whose fault is that?

 

Shocked that the blue toned Indian was cleaned with MS70 or before MS70, ammonia. Whose fault is that?

 

Shocked that a silver commemorative from this year that is toned in wild rainbows turns out to have been made. Whose fault is that?

 

Shocked that the raw key date without any of the well know correct diagnostics you purchased is counterfeit. Whose fault is that?

 

Shocked that the 1811 Trade dollar you purchased off eBay from a private feedback seller in China is fake. Whose fault is that?

 

To answer the above, it must be the fault of others ruining your innocent and naive hobby. It can’t possibly be the fault of the people who don’t take the time to educate themselves.

 

Fact: Most old white silver coins have been dipped in acid.

 

Fact: Most blue toned Indians have been curated with MS70.

 

Fact: Most wildly toned ultra modern silver coins are “made”.

 

Fact: All raw key date coins without the correct diagnostics are counterfeit.

 

Fact: All 1811 Trade dollars are counterfeit.

 

The above is well known throughout the industry. Ask your average dealer. None of this info has ever been hidden. The fact that YOU failed to take the time to learn is YOUR problem. Don’t blame others. Don’t get all righteous. Don’t point fingers unless you’re looking in a mirror.

 

 

I’ve seen some [embarrassing lack of self control] about people saying how NGC is slabbing AT coins. You’re insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. Clueless insufficiently_thoughtful_persons! How many of you have held one of these coins in your hand? Does it look AT to you? Come on, you’re the self-proclaimed experts. Look at the coin.

 

How many blue toned Indians are out there? A few thousand is my guess. How many are slabbed? I’d guess around a thousand. They’re slabbed by all the services. Excluding NGC from this statement, before the original thread a couple months ago was posted, I had spoken to graders at two of the other services about blue Indians. Point blank I asked them about them. They were 100% knowledgeable about MS70 being used on them and still fine with slabbing them. Market acceptable.

 

Don’t like them, don’t buy them, but don’t whine like a little girl that you’re not happy with this. Go start your own grading service and get off the [embarrassing lack of self control] of the grading services.

[Narmuriel]

[jom]

 

You certainly put it better than I did. Nice job!

 

jom

[HaydenTubbs]

Post deleted by HaydenTubbs

[Fairlaneman]

Its about time that someone did not pu$$y foot around with collectors and gave them the real low down about things that happen in this hobby.

 

Screw the TPG's and make your own decisions. Some coins are blatant, may I say this, AT that end up in holders.

 

Yes we can chastise the seller of this [embarrassing lack of self control] but is he the one person that put the coin in the plastic. I think not. Still it is very discouraging that well know and trusted HOBBY MEMBERS would try to pass this junk on to the unknowing collectors that have entered the HOBBY recently.

 

Nice Initial Post.....

 

Ken

[James_OldeTowne]

I Agree with #1, #3, #5 .

 

I Disagree with #2. I can tell which coins in my pocketful of change are original.

 

I don't agree with #4 either. Some people are stupid, some ignorant, and some merely inexperienced, none of which makes them hypocrites.

 

I don't agree completely with #6. You CAN still collect coins out of pocket change, and you CAN still trade coins to where no money changes hands (I do this a lot) and do it as a hobby, NOT a business.

 

I do get tired of others - ESPECIALLY TPGs - telling me what's acceptable and what's not acceptable to collect. I'll never, ever understand those who just can't make up their own mind about something without the safety net of a third-party opinion. Live a little!

 

James

[IGWT]

This is what bothers me most about your post, Greg: You chastise people for not working harder to find out about practices that you're loathe to admit. It seems to me that those who are treating the coins are in the best position to educate prospective buyers; but, of course they don't, because an educated consumer is not their best customer. How can someone curse the naiviete of the person he exploits?

[DMWJR-migration]

No need to read the entire (and typical) gmarguli rant. Here is the nutshell version:

 

"Educate yourself because I'm going to screw you to the wall if I can, and it will be all your own fault. I have no responsibility to you or the hobby."

[gmarguli]

You chastise people for not working harder to find out about practices that you're loathe to admit.

 

Loathe to admit? Here

 

You can probably find other threads here and across the street where I discuss MS70. Like I said, it's never been a secret. It's very well known. I've discussed it many times. I can name half a dozen forum members that I told about MS70 well before the threads came out.

 

I've been very free about talking with people about what is done by others to coins in this industry. However, I am more cautious talking on the forums. I am hesitant to post too much stuff because there are people who will take the knowledge, take it a step too far, and I don't want to be partly responsible for it. I have had a person contact me over these forums wanting me to expand on certain things I discussed for the sole purpose of doctoring coins. I declined to give them any info.

[JamminJ]

Greg, are you related to Larua in any way?

[gmarguli]

Greg, are you related to Larua in any way?

 

She once sent me a PM asking if she could go by Mini Mean & Evil™

[John Martinez]

Ever hear “Buy the book before the coin”? Sure you have. Did you? Of course not. People spend their hard earned money before learning and end up unhappy. Boo hoo [embarrassing lack of self control] hoo! That’s life and happens in every aspect of life. You jump into stuff you know nothing about and wonder what happened. So what. Who is to blame?

 

Educate yourself. Period.

 

Interesting post. I enjoyed reading it. While you did not direct it to anyone and while I am not offended, is not the fact that people are on here asking questions and sharing the bad experiences witness to our collective wanting to learn?

 

You can buy the books. I have a few. I also know a bunch of educated insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. People that know what they read and can't think for themselves.

 

 

Don’t like them, don’t buy them, but don’t whine like a little girl that you’re not happy with this. Go start your own grading service and get off the [embarrassing lack of self control] of the grading services.

 

I've just rekindled the love for this hobby. I have a learning curve. I will probably make some mistakes. I'm glad that people on here are sharing their positive and negative experiences, so let 'em whine.

 

If I send in a coin, it's slabbed and returned with stuff encased in the slab with the coin - spit, snot, hiar, fibers, etc - I have a right to complain and stay on the grading service's That said, I also agree that I have a responsibility to evaluate the coin irrespective of the plastic.

 

Whose fault is that?

 

To answer this specific question. If I fail to educate myself, or if in the case of my recent purchase know the risks and take them anyway, then the fault is mine. If a dealer knowingly sells as good stuff. Well, I place the blame at his feet.

[gmarguli]

Interesting post. I enjoyed reading it. While you did not direct it to anyone and while I am not offended, is not the fact that people are on here asking questions and sharing the bad experiences witness to our collective wanting to learn?

 

To a large extent, yes! And I honestly do my best to educate people here. However, what I see happening more and more (mainly across the street) is the concept of absolving the buyer from responsibility of educating themselves and placing all the blame on the seller.

 

Typical post: new collector goes into a coin shop and buys a bunch of coins. Takes them to another shop and finds out that they are overgraded/cleaned/overpriced/graded by the wrong grading company. He comes to the forums and whines that the dealer is a scumbag. Everyone agrees.

 

It's like the buyer is immune. Sure someone (cough, TomB, cough) will tell the buyer he was stupid for buying the coin before the book, but most people just automatically protect the buyer and attack the seller. I used to feel sorry for people who would buy coins in ACG slabs and get burned. After a while I became dead to it. I'd just wonder if the buyer did any research before making the purchase. If he had, he'd have been better informed. Don't blame the seller for the shortcomings of the buyer.

 

Maybe I'm different, but before I make a purchase of any real dollar value, I do research and determine if I want to jump in. If it turns out to be a bad decision (and I've had many) then so be it. I went in educated. I don't go in blind and then see something later on that makes me unhappy and complain and get the lynch mob lighting up their pyres.

 

This thread really was not about any one topic. I've wanted to write it for a long time. However, the "not so Mean & Evil™" side of me has taken over here and I've resisted commenting like this. Buyers need to be educated before they make purchases and have no one to blame but themselves if they don’t. Coins are not an exception to this rule.

[CTcollector]

Gmarguli - Plain and simple, you've sold out.

 

Also - when you get a chance, please edit the title of the thread to something other than "What you Need to Know".

 

thanks !

[supertooth]

Well Folks----I guess it was bound to happen. That our "What You Need To Know" thread would be hijacked. CT collector and I have faithfully assigned dates for members to post and, not surprisingly, Greg has cared not to follow the accepted practice. He has taken the spot of Brotherman. Naturally, in his current circumstances, I understand that he does not care. A selfish man cares for no man but himself. I would just like to say that neither CT nor myself are on board with this rogue thread. I also would ask that this thread be removed from our "What You Need To Know" title. Bob [supertooth]

[crito]

I may not agree with everything Greg said, but I do agree people tend to blame everyone but themselves for their problems/mistakes.

 

When collectors demanded slabbed Bust halves, even if lightly (and abrasively) cleaned, the TPGSes provided them. Collectors demanded monster toned Morgans, the TPGSes provided them. Collectors who formerly wanted all white coins now think they're all overdipped, the TPGS start bagging white coins for (non-abrasive) cleaning that were perfectly acceptable 10 years ago.

 

So if you hate blue indians stop buying blue indians and the TPGSes will stop slabbing blue indians. It's thats simple. "Market acceptable" means just that. If collectors wouldn't buy them, they wouldn't slab them.

[MikeKing]

Did someone put salt in your spaghetti?

[MAULEMALL]

Well Folks----I guess it was bound to happen. That our "What You Need To Know" thread would be hijacked. CT collector and I have faithfully assigned dates for members to post and, not surprisingly, Greg has cared not to follow the accepted practice. He has taken the spot of Brotherman. Naturally, in his current circumstances, I understand that he does not care. A selfish man cares for no man but himself. I would just like to say that neither CT nor myself are on board with this rogue thread. I also would ask that this thread be removed from our "What You Need To Know" title. Bob [supertooth]

I don't believe your thread was Hijacked....It's still up there pinned to the top.

[MAULEMALL]

Gmarguli - Plain and simple, you've sold out.

 

Also - when you get a chance, please edit the title of the thread to something other than "What you Need to Know".

 

thanks !

 

I found the post by Greg to be appropriately titled as something "you need to know".

I don't see where Greg has sold out.

[MikeInFL]

So it's our fault for being taken advantage of, not your fault for taking advantage of us. Just like it is not the rapist's fault, its the girl's fault. Yeah, right. Sounds like your got your hands caught in the cookie jar, and now you are trying to justify your unetical behavior. Try this in any other industry, and you would be in jail. Sleep well....Mike

[EZ_E]

It's like the buyer is immune. Sure someone (cough, TomB, cough) will tell the buyer he was stupid for buying the coin before the book, but most people just automatically protect the buyer and attack the seller. I used to feel sorry for people who would buy coins in ACG slabs and get burned. After a while I became dead to it. I'd just wonder if the buyer did any research before making the purchase. If he had, he'd have been better informed. Don't blame the seller for the shortcomings of the buyer.

 

Maybe I'm different, but before I make a purchase of any real dollar value, I do research and determine if I want to jump in. If it turns out to be a bad decision (and I've had many) then so be it. I went in educated. I don't go in blind and then see something later on that makes me unhappy and complain and get the lynch mob lighting up their pyres.

 

Greg, it is easy to make this statement as an educated, seasoned numismatist but it is a whole different story for one who comes into the hobby as an enthusiastic, wide-eyed rookie.

 

You are certainly right that one has no business making large purchases with little or no knowledge of the market but that doesn't excuse dishonesty. Many of the large advertisers in the numismatic publications thrive on this niche.

 

p.s. Great post, by the way.

[EZ_E]

Well Folks----I guess it was bound to happen. That our "What You Need To Know" thread would be hijacked. CT collector and I have faithfully assigned dates for members to post and, not surprisingly, Greg has cared not to follow the accepted practice. He has taken the spot of Brotherman. Naturally, in his current circumstances, I understand that he does not care. A selfish man cares for no man but himself. I would just like to say that neither CT nor myself are on board with this rogue thread. I also would ask that this thread be removed from our "What You Need To Know" title. Bob [supertooth]

I don't believe your thread was Hijacked....It's still up there pinned to the top.

 

Greg was just being satyrical. You shouldn't take offense, IMO. Besides, it does contain much needed to know knowledge. People are flaming Greg for not letting them know about MS70's effects. Well, here it is.

[Stanley]

Well Folks----I guess it was bound to happen. That our "What You Need To Know" thread would be hijacked. CT collector and I have faithfully assigned dates for members to post and, not surprisingly, Greg has cared not to follow the accepted practice. He has taken the spot of Brotherman. Naturally, in his current circumstances, I understand that he does not care. A selfish man cares for no man but himself. I would just like to say that neither CT nor myself are on board with this rogue thread. I also would ask that this thread be removed from our "What You Need To Know" title. Bob [supertooth]

 

Supertooth, It is not my intention to undermine your and CT’s sentiment or whether this thread has been hijacked. I think you both and everyone that participates are doing a great job at posting this much needed information. I applaud you both for your tireless efforts and success in bringing these issues to the table for debate.

 

IMHO - While perhaps this post was out of sync with your posting schedule I loved it. I think it is another way to keep the information flowing on this ever evolving hobby we call coin collecting. Thanks again! For it was your platform that that brought this issue to discussion in open forum. Isn’t that what this is all about.

 

And thank you Greg for your straight talk.

[James_OldeTowne]

I agree that "What you Need to Know" should not appear in the title of this thread. I've suggested to folks to come over to this forum expressly for the purpose of looking for threads with "What you Need to Know" in the title, and this thread is not what I was hoping they'd find .

 

James

[Stanley]

James I could agree with you on that, but to me it doesn’t matter.

I see your point.

[supertooth]

Spider and all the folks-----It is not that Greg or anybody else doesn't have a right to post. Whether we agree or disagree with his words is also unimportant. It is that he posted without getting a posting date from either myself or CTcollector. And, by doing that, has pushed another forum member out of line. To me this is inconsiderate of others and selfish on his part. However, if all of you do not care whether we have any organization to this thread, I will be glad to stop getting people to post and it can be as haphazard as it gets. You all must decide. Bob [supertooth]

[Stanley]

I thought I was complementing you and letting you know that this incident wasn’t going to effect my opinion on this “What You Need To Know Thread”,

Just a bump in the road.

[CTcollector]

I agree that "What you Need to Know" should not appear in the title of this thread. I've suggested to folks to come over to this forum expressly for the purpose of looking for threads with "What you Need to Know" in the title, and this thread is not what I was hoping they'd find .

 

James

 

I have also recommended and encouraged many folk to come over and read the "What you Need to Know" posts. Most of these individual's are novice collectors or just plain motivated to learn more about the hobby in an inviting atmosphere. Honestly, if the posts are adopting a new spin and heading in a different direction than originally intended, I have no interest in contributing any further.

 

Additionally, a reminder to everyone that Bob (supertooth) has invested alot of his personal time moderating and organizing the "What you Need to Know" posts. I would hope that everyone respects and supports this.

[Stanley]

I agree that "What you Need to Know" should not appear in the title of this thread. I've suggested to folks to come over to this forum expressly for the purpose of looking for threads with "What you Need to Know" in the title, and this thread is not what I was hoping they'd find .

 

James

 

I have also recommended and encouraged many folk to come over and read the "What you Need to Know" posts. Most of these individual's are novice collectors or just plain motivated to learn more about the hobby in an inviting atmosphere. Honestly, if the posts are adopting a new spin and heading in a different direction than originally intended, I have no interest in contributing any further.

 

Additionally, a reminder to everyone that Bob (supertooth) has invested alot of his personal time moderating and organizing the "What you Need to Know" posts. I would hope that everyone respects and supports this.

 

That is exactly what I was trying to convey with my earlier post. .

[Architecht]

 

Ultimately, a combination of community sentiment and, in my opinion, the ideas of Super and CT should guide the development of the WYNK posts. I think there's alot of interesting and valuable perspective in Greg's post, but I can certainly understand how the tone of it may not match the vision of gentle instruction that started the WYNK effort. The idea behind WYNK (as I understand it) is a complete vision of the kind of information, the format, the pacing and the tone of delivery that will, in the founders' opinions, do the best job of enriching the collecting experience of new collectors. Those who have contributed posts have bought into that vision as well.

 

Building an internally consistent body of work in that way does mean that there are some constraints that should be respected on the form and function of these posts. I can also understand the value that Super and CT place on the scheduled release of the posts as it keeps the content coming in a regular flow, and that is an important part of building an audience for the posts and keeping up the enthusiasm for contributing.

 

Of course that doesn't mean Greg can't/shouldn't post his own brand of information. In fact, despite the uh... provocative wording... of the post, I would think that the community would be poorer for the lack of it. Part of what makes a community interesting is the breadth of styles and contributions. Sometimes the controversial contributions can spur alot of dialogue that is ultimately very beneficial.

 

In the end, though, I think what will help define the boundaries of the WYNK contributions is their collection over time into the WYNK folder:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=wyntk

 

I think that giving super and CT a sense of some editorial control over what is and isn't moved into that folder seems appropriate? Does anyone disagree?