MS70 reacts with oxidated copper surfaces.

[truthteller]

So why does MS70 turn copper coins blue, violet, etc? It reacts with the thin film of oxidated copper/bronze. The deeper the oxidation, the more color reaction. Red coins will have less of a reaction to no reaction since the oxidation is exteremely thin. Often, grime oxidizes the exposed portions of the coin surface less than crevices. That is why you may have colors in the hidden portions of the coin, and less color on the exposed portions, after an application of MS70. The reaction is NOT reversible, meaning placing acetone will not "bring back" the original surfaces. However, placing Blue Ribbon WILL mute the color. Acetone will remove the Blue Ribbon. bringing back the colors. Application of acetone to suspected AT on copper IS NOT a truthful method of determining real color from artificial color.

 

 

 

 

TRUTH

[MarkFeld]

Truth, a couple of questions if you don't mind...

 

1) Can you tell us the source of that information? If so, and it looks like a good one, I'd like to post the information "elsewhere" too.

 

2) Does that mean in your opinion, at least, that applying MS70 adds color or changes a coin to a color that didn't exist previously, as opposed to bringing out color that was already present? Thanks.

[zrlevin]

That is a very interesting explanation, and it made complete sense, Thanks TT! Mark, it sounds like the MS70 changes the color of the oxidized layer, adding color, not bringing out color that was already present.

 

Zach

[MarkFeld]

Zach, that was my thought, but I am trying to be objective and open-minded on the subject.

[truthteller]

Experimentation and observation.

 

A while ago, I was informed that MS70 affects copper/bronze in an unusual way. This was new information to me. I purchased about 20 low grade uncirculated indian head cents in various states of oxidation( RB, BN). In addition, I purchased some common 1C, and 5C bronze mexican coins(about 25) from a similar era. The mexican pieces had a similar composition of bronze and I used several RED specimens, since indian red 1C specimens were too expensive for this process. The experimentation was to use the aforementioned processes using MS70, Blue Ribbon, Jeweluster and heat, alone, in combination, in combination after steps of application of each chemical.

 

The results are in detail, can be reproduced, can be extrapolated to similar coinage of various countries, can be extrapolated to similar bronze/copper coins of different size and denominations.

 

In a concise fashion, I found this to be the case of the MS70 process.

 

A coin with the compostion of 95% copper, 5% tin/zinc will change color in the aforementioned ways with MS70. Again, the color is irreversible. The degree of oxidation( browning) will determine the degree of blue/violet, or combination. A layer of "sheen" will be exhibited after the MS70 is washed away from the surfaces with water.

 

A coin with mostly red/RB will produce light and delightful blues/violets throughout the exposed portions of the coin, with mostly darker coloration appearing in the devices.

 

A coin with mostly brown/RB will produce heavy to moderated blues/violet uniformly throughout the entire coin.

 

A coin with heavy grime with mostly red/RB will produce a more stark contrast with the freshly exposed portions of the coin where the grime was.

 

A coin with little or no grime will produce a much more uniform color.

 

A coin with heavy oxidation(BN) will produce the deepest violet/blue color.

 

The process DOES NOT affect the luster, but does remove the grime which may mute the luster.

 

 

Again, this is a portion of the experimentation with MS70. As a corollary, I used Blue Ribbon on several MS70 treated copper coins, then applied acetone. The Blue Ribbon was removed, exposing the previous colors, albeit NOT IDENTICAL to colors previous to the application of Blue Ribbon.

 

This experiment can be reproduced by anyone to confirm my results for these SPECIFIC coins and applications..

 

 

TRUTH

[truthteller]

In addition, NO OTHER colors were produced. Very important.

 

HOWEVER, when heat was applied in moderation to a coin treated with MS70, the color GREEN became evident in a very small population of the coins.

 

 

There are many, many, many more aspects of the different processes used, degrees, amounts, as well as application of heat.

 

 

TRUTH

[MarkFeld]

Truth, excellent information - thanks. Please explain why the color/toning results of using MS70 in that fashion should NOT be considered "artificial color/toning"?

[truthteller]

"2) Does that mean in your opinion, at least, that applying MS70 adds color or changes a coin to a color that didn't exist previously, as opposed to bringing out color that was already present? Thanks."

 

 

In my observations, which form my opinion, the color DID NOT exist previous to the application of MS70. The color was A RESULT of the application of MS70

 

 

 

TRUTH

[HaydenTubbs]

 

In my observations, which form my opinion, the color DID NOT exist previous to the application of MS70. The color was A RESULT of the application of MS70

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

 

[truthteller]

Truth, excellent information - thanks. Please explain why the color/toning results of using MS70 in that fashion should NOT be considered "artificial color/toning"?

 

 

I cannot say if this is "artificial toning" of a coin since there are very many definitions of what is "artificial" versus "acelerated" versus "natural". I will state, again from my observations, that using MS70 "produces" color that, in general, did not naturally occur. Because MS70 is not present in the environment, at least not to my knowledge, the process cannot be determined to be caused by environmental conditions, unlike colors that are produced by envelopes, coin books, coin holders, etc, which have naturally occurring sulfur exposure.

 

 

TRUTH

[MikeInFL]

Thank you for taking the time to do the experiments and posting the results. However, I cannot say that this comes as a surprise.

 

Do you have any pictures of such artifically toned coins so we can all see what they look like?

 

Thanks again...Mike

[IGWT]

If MS70 can MAKE coins blue (i.e. AT them if you wish), then why won't it do it to red coins? Is MS70 making the coins blue or revealing the blue or removing only certain layers that allow for blue to be visible? Who knows.

 

I know nothing about chemistry, so I can't really say what is happening.

 

I take it, Greg, that you have no reason to disagree with Truth.

 

Edited to add: For those of you who are just entering the discussion, this thread was preceded by this one.

 

 

[truthteller]

I don't have pictures. But I do have a library of coins used in the experimentation process. Most of which exhibit the colors of MS70, some coins are heat exposed, some coins are combinations of Blue Ribbon, MS70, heat. All in all, I have a library of about 200 low grade US/mexico uncirculated coins of silver, bronze, coppernickel, nickel, clad, etc which I have used in the experimentation process. This was a two year endeavor and I hoped to release the results one day, maybe a book. If you ask, I can bring a few coins to a local show as a show and tell.

 

All of my experimentation can be reproduced using little or no expense, except for the coins.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

Because MS70 is not present in the environment, at least not to my knowledge, the process cannot be determined to be caused by environmental conditions, unlike colors that are produced by envelopes, coin books, coin holders, etc, which have naturally occurring sulfur exposure.

 

TRUTH

 

What are the chemicals in MS70 and do they match any chemicals in coin holders either now or in the past?

[Connecticoin]

Have you compared the "MS-70" blue toned coins, with blue toned coins considered "NT"? If so, can you tell any difference?

[gmarguli]

If MS70 can MAKE coins blue (i.e. AT them if you wish), then why won't it do it to red coins? Is MS70 making the coins blue or revealing the blue or removing only certain layers that allow for blue to be visible? Who knows.

 

I know nothing about chemistry, so I can't really say what is happening.

 

I take it, Greg, that you have no reason to disagree with Truth.

 

I have no reason to disagree or agree. At this point I can't really comment on his observations.

[truthteller]

Because MS70 is not present in the environment, at least not to my knowledge, the process cannot be determined to be caused by environmental conditions, unlike colors that are produced by envelopes, coin books, coin holders, etc, which have naturally occurring sulfur exposure.

 

TRUTH

 

What are the chemicals in MS70 and do they match any chemicals in coin holders either now or in the past?

 

 

For this detailed information, please consult the manufacturer.

 

Betterbilt Chemicals

1455 Palomares St #A

La Verne

CA

91750

Phones: (909) 392-3111

 

 

It's rather like asking, "what's the formula for Coke", which composition and mixture is not found naturally in the environment, at least not that I am aware of.

 

 

TRUTH

[IGWT]

Hey! Why is the rating dropping for this thread. It started out as 5 stars.

[gmarguli]

Hey! Why is the rating dropping for this thread. It started out as 5 stars.

 

Because all the conservatives see Truth started a thread and immediately rate it a 1 star without reading it.

[truthteller]

Have you compared the "MS-70" blue toned coins, with blue toned coins considered "NT"? If so, can you tell any difference?

 

 

Yes, I have compared the two. Yes, I can tell a difference. HOWEVER, I cannot tell FOR CERTAINTY, since coins with color CAN have colors which look much like the MS70 process and are natural, in my opinion. After 30 years of looking at coins with all different colors, before and after, unless I saw the color form, there is NO WAY to determine natural toning to artificial or accerated toning. The only way I can determine real color is from observations of past experiences.

 

IN GENERAL, a naturally occuring color on a coin will have a "skin" or light film of oxidation OVER the color. A coin with a "sheen", is "bright" or has no oxidation is immediately suspect.

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

IN GENERAL, a naturally occuring color on a coin will have a "skin" or light film of oxidation OVER the color. A coin with a "sheen", is "bright" or has no oxidation is immediately suspect.

 

Can't this skin be easily removed? I know for a fact it can. It leaves more vibrant looking toning.

[HaydenTubbs]

IN GENERAL, a naturally occuring color on a coin will have a "skin" or light film of oxidation OVER the color. A coin with a "sheen", is "bright" or has no oxidation is immediately suspect.

 

Can't this skin be easily removed? I know for a fact it can. It leaves more vibrant looking toning.

 

Care to show before and after pics?

[truthteller]

IN GENERAL, a naturally occuring color on a coin will have a "skin" or light film of oxidation OVER the color. A coin with a "sheen", is "bright" or has no oxidation is immediately suspect.

 

Can't this skin be easily removed? I know for a fact it can. It leaves more vibrant looking toning.

 

Yes, the "skin" can be removed. Often, the coin is much more vibrant, but no longer original. I know of some absolutely stunning coins that have no "skin". I also know that some old time collectors will not touch such coins. It's simply a matter of knowledge, taste and acceptance.

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

IN GENERAL, a naturally occuring color on a coin will have a "skin" or light film of oxidation OVER the color. A coin with a "sheen", is "bright" or has no oxidation is immediately suspect.

 

Can't this skin be easily removed? I know for a fact it can. It leaves more vibrant looking toning.

 

Care to show before and after pics?

 

I have none. Once you get the hang of it, it's a very easy process of a cottom ball and very weak acid (i.e. Jeweluster, lemon juice, etc).

[HaydenTubbs]

So your saying that a light dip on some of,say a few dull but colorful morgan toners I have,would bring out their true "vibrant" color?

[gmarguli]

It depends. You can usually find toned coins where the colorful toning is clearly UNDER a layer of oxidation. This top layer makes the colors less vibrant. If you can remove just the top layer of oxidation, you'll see the vibrant colors underneath. Or you take too much and ruin the color that was underneath.

 

You can't take a coin where the color is dull and make it better. It has to be there in the first place.

 

Think of it this way, there is a store front window that is very dirty. Behind it is a painting. The painting is stunning, but people can't see it that well from the outside. Clean the window and the beautiful painting becomes much more clear for people.

 

Same as above, but the painting is only so-so. No matter how clean the window, the painting is never going to be stunning.

[Coinbuf]

A question for you Truth; how stable are these coins you experimented with? Has the color remained the same and has the sheen changed or dulled over time?

 

Chris

[truthteller]

A question for you Truth; how stable are these coins you experimented with? Has the color remained the same and has the sheen changed or dulled over time?

 

Chris

 

 

The experimental coins are in a low humidity enviroment and have stayed there since the process was completed about 8 months ago. None of the copper coins have changed in any way. The "sheen" is still crisp. HOWEVER, I do not know if other environmental factors will change the color, such as humidity, ambient temperature, coin movement in flips, etc.

 

 

TRUTH

[gmarguli]

A question for you Truth; how stable are these coins you experimented with? Has the color remained the same and has the sheen changed or dulled over time?

 

Chris

 

 

The experimental coins are in a low humidity enviroment and have stayed there since the process was completed about 8 months ago. None of the copper coins have changed in any way. The "sheen" is still crisp. HOWEVER, I do not know if other environmental factors will change the color, such as humidity, ambient temperature, coin movement in flips, etc.

 

 

TRUTH

 

I know a person who has used this stuff on his personal coins for 20 years and those coins are in his collection. He told me that they don't change.

[Coinbuf]

Thanks, I had responded to Marks earler thread on this subject and posted this coin which turnned blue when I applied an acetone bath to it. I had aways wondered why it did so.