A revealing thread ATS - Colored (Doctored) Copper

[CTcollector]

A must read for anyone interested in copper. Mark Feld (coinguy1) did a great job bringing this to light. Many before and after images of "doctored coins". If I mess up the link, can someone be kind enough to help me out...

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=522341

 

I am sad to say that stuff like this is going to kill the hobby....

[truthteller]

Well, if you have been on this forum for a while, the subject of AT comes up ALL the time, not to mention, surface alterations, hazing, etc. The blue toning on indian cents has been around for a long, long time, and is nothing new in the industry. The only reason it is a HUGE topic today is the prices that are being realized. 6 years ago, colored coins were cool, now they are monster. A nicely colored anycoin would bring a fair premium, now they bring multiples. So the scenario gets tricky. The greed of a few doctors, who can get tons of money for a colored coin, multiply when a novice with little knowledge and lots of cash is willing to pay too much. Although I shake my head, this is NOTHING NEW. Simple, very simple home processes can make a coin blue, not to mention simple chemicals that are readily available. IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE BUYING A COIN OUTSIDE A HOLDER, DON'T BUY IT IN A HOLDER.

 

 

TRUTH

[chinook]

I am sad to say that stuff like this is going to kill the hobby

 

You can thank the guy who turned this...

 

 

 

 

 

into this.....

 

 

[WaxonWaxov]

I don't get it!

 

Why is it worth while to do this?

 

Just because insufficiently_thoughtful_persons on Ebay look at it and think "ooo pretty" ?

[chinook]

No. Because the coin goes into an NGC 66* BN holder.

[MunkyMan95]

Wow Chinook! Nice!!!

[chinook]

Wow Chinook! Nice!!!

 

No. Not nice. And I did not AT this coin.

[Bruceswar]

While I was reading this I was thinking of all the coins that are now suspect. I think this will have some effect on the toning market as a whole right now, but we shall what happens. Dave what do you think of all of this? I know you have quite a few toned proofs, and you could offer up some great insight.

[HaydenTubbs]

Need I say more?

 

heritage auction

 

Now a NGC PF-65 BN:

 

[IGWT]

I can't be sure about that coin, Hayden, because I don't see any obvious obverse die markers. I'll take your word, though, based on the other examples that I've seen today. I'm generally a bit cynical and a lot wary; but, I've got to tell you, I've been genuinely disillusioned today. I guess I'm just not savvy enough for this hobby . . . or at least for certain segments of this hobby.

[Bruceswar]

I can't be sure about that coin, Hayden, because I don't see any obvious obverse die markers. I'll take your word, though, based on the other examples that I've seen today. I'm generally a bit cynical and a lot wary; but, I've got to tell you, I've been genuinely disillusioned today. I guess I'm just not savvy enough for this hobby . . . or at least for certain segments of this hobby.

 

You and me both.... I can't wait to see what Dave has to say and his thoughts on it all.

[HaydenTubbs]

Hi Lou,

There are actually numerous markers on this coin,if you're on your laptop it may be harder to see.Just comparing the picture on my laptop screen and the LCD screen hooked up to my laptop these "markers" are noticably harder to see on the laptop screen. Compare the large spot by the nose as well as the smaller spots by the neckline.

 

 

Hayden

[TomB]

They are without question the same coins, both the 1914 and 1883 examples, and I am afraid this goes much deeper than what is shown here. This is not a good situation, and there likely will be no happy ending.

[MAULEMALL]

When I was a younger man and was Traveling on the Marine Corps expense I happened to be stationed on Fatima Air Station Okinawa Japan.

I wasn't into coins then but I was into the absolute genius of the Japanese peoples abilities to manufacture these Gorgeous black lacquer tables from a single piece of rice paper and multiples of layers of, What we would consider, clear lacquer.

 

I can fully understand the stripping of lacquer producing the underlying and actual toning.

[CTcollector]

I have only 1 copper coin in my collection, but the revealations that came out in the PCGS thread and subsequently here, has got me down. I know copper has its problems historically, but the best way I can describe my feelings after seeing all the before and after pictures AND pricing is I want to puke. Collectors are going to get burned, while the parasites of the hobby and their enablers make out like bandits. This cycle is not sustainable long term.

[MikeInFL]

Wow Chinook! Nice!!!

 

No. Not nice. And I did not AT this coin.

 

Then where did the color come from???

[WinstonWare]

This is troubling.

 

For those who aren't clear on why this is an issue I would suggest looking at TomB's website. There is a link in his signature line. In short though, natural toning brings a premium and artificial toning makes a coin a problem coin.

 

Tom, I was actually hoping to hear more from you on this issue. My main question is: Do you think this issue could extend beyond copper?

 

As always, thanks for any insight.

[CTcollector]

I can't be sure about that coin, Hayden, because I don't see any obvious obverse die markers. I'll take your word, though, based on the other examples that I've seen today. I'm generally a bit cynical and a lot wary; but, I've got to tell you, I've been genuinely disillusioned today. I guess I'm just not savvy enough for this hobby . . . or at least for certain segments of this hobby.

 

You and me both.... I can't wait to see what Dave has to say and his thoughts on it all.

 

I am in your guys camp. I am down today because of this. I am not an expert in copper, but I am very conservative towards coins and I look for this type of Monkey Business all the time and I had no idea it was this pervasive. The amount of before and after examples everyone was so readily able to produce has definitely thrown me for a loop.

[MunkyMan95]

Even though I enjoy the occasional beauty of a nice toned coin, this is mainly why I stray away from the area altogether. Unless the coin comes from a VERY reliable source, I will not buy anything with even the smallest spot of toning on it for fear of Artificial toning.

[HaydenTubbs]

 

Tom, I was actually hoping to hear more from you on this issue. My main question is: Do you think this issue could extend beyond copper?

 

 

 

I understand that it has been tried on gold...

[gmarguli]

The MPL pictured in this thread is mine. The absolute ONLY thing done to it was a quick light swab with MS70 to remove all the dirt and grime.

[MAULEMALL]

The MPL pictured in this thread is mine. The absolute ONLY thing done to it was a quick light swab with MS70 to remove all the dirt and grime.

Are you speaking of the 1914 Greg.

[gmarguli]

The MPL pictured in this thread is mine. The absolute ONLY thing done to it was a quick light swab with MS70 to remove all the dirt and grime.

Are you speaking of the 1914 Greg.

 

Yes.

[MAULEMALL]

The MPL pictured in this thread is mine. The absolute ONLY thing done to it was a quick light swab with MS70 to remove all the dirt and grime.

Are you speaking of the 1914 Greg.

 

Yes.

It's a nice looking coin.Is Chinook trying to imply you did something unethical? Personally I don't think you would ever do ANYTHING unethical or detramental in this hobby.I have conversed through the boards with Greg for about 4 or 5 years and Chinook if you are implying something you Better have your ducks in a row.

And in all seriousness I think you need to explain exactly what you are Implying.

 

 

Patrick

[IGWT]

Chinook if you are implying something you Better have your ducks in a row. And in all seriousness I think you need to explain exactly what you are Implying.

 

Patrick – Go back and reread the thread. Greg plainly stated that he treated the coins (or at least the 1914 MPL) with MS70. The pictures speak for themselves without any implication necessary on the part of Chinook.

[Bruceswar]

He did not ijmply that greg had done anything more than handle the coins in the end. Both Dave and greg are good guys. This coin was not AT'ed by either of them.

[MAULEMALL]

Chinook if you are implying something you Better have your ducks in a row. And in all seriousness I think you need to explain exactly what you are Implying.

 

Patrick – Go back and reread the thread. Greg plainly stated that he treated the coins (or at least the 1914 MPL) with MS70. The pictures speak for themselves without any implication necessary on the part of Chinook.

 

I am under the impression that he is implying that Greg doctored the coin to enhance the color.

MS70 is a cleaner if I am not mistaken...Not unlike acetone. Just a milder form of cleaner.

I don't believe MS70 can color a coin or am I incorrect?

Chinook (in my opinion) is implying something a little more sinister when he Posted that coin.AND pointed to it as an example of Whats Wrong with the Hobby.

Cleaning the Gunk off a coin and Doctoring a coin are 2 COMPLETELY different things and I will not sit around and see a VALUED member of these boards denigrated without an explanation.

 

I would expect and demand an explanation if it were you he was pointing too as well.

 

This is not the PCGS board and if you want the PCGS board you don't have far to go.

The difference between here and across the street is the same difference between Congress's House and Senate.

I personally think that we are a little more civil here and we don't cast aspersions lightly.

 

 

Edited for spelling

[chinook]

Chinook if you are implying something you Better have your ducks in a row. And in all seriousness I think you need to explain exactly what you are Implying.

 

Patrick – Go back and reread the thread. Greg plainly stated that he treated the coins (or at least the 1914 MPL) with MS70. The pictures speak for themselves without any implication necessary on the part of Chinook.

 

I am under the impression that he is implying that Greg doctered the coin to enhance the color.

MS70 is a cleaner if I am not mistaken...Not unlike acitone. Just a milder form of cleaner.

I don't believe MS70 can color a coin or am I incorrect?

Chinook (in my opinion) is implying something a little more sinister when he Posted that coin.AND pointed to it as an example of Whats Wrong with the Hobby.

Cleaning the Gunk off a coin and Docxtering a coin are 2 COMPLETELY different things and I will not sit around and see a VALUED member of these boards dennigrated without an explanation.

 

I would expect and demand an explanation if it were you he was pointing too as well.

 

This is not the PCGS board and if you want the PCGS board you don't have far to go.

The difference between here and across the street is the same difference between Congress and The Senate.

I personally think that we are a little more civil here and we don't cast aspersions lightly.

 

Patrick....Please refer to the thread whereby Greg talks about the implied improper storage of copper coins. Then open the links that I provided to the same exact coins as they appeared in Heritage auctions in Late April. For some reason the coins do not have the color/appearance in Greg's photos that they did in the Heritage auction.

 

Believe me, my heart sank into my stomach when I saw this, but the truth often hurts.

[gmarguli]

Chinook if you are implying something you Better have your ducks in a row. And in all seriousness I think you need to explain exactly what you are Implying.

 

Patrick – Go back and reread the thread. Greg plainly stated that he treated the coins (or at least the 1914 MPL) with MS70. The pictures speak for themselves without any implication necessary on the part of Chinook.

 

I am under the impression that he is implying that Greg doctered the coin to enhance the color.

MS70 is a cleaner if I am not mistaken...Not unlike acitone. Just a milder form of cleaner.

I don't believe MS70 can color a coin or am I incorrect?

Chinook (in my opinion) is implying something a little more sinister when he Posted that coin.AND pointed to it as an example of Whats Wrong with the Hobby.

Cleaning the Gunk off a coin and Docxtering a coin are 2 COMPLETELY different things and I will not sit around and see a VALUED member of these boards dennigrated without an explanation.

 

I would expect and demand an explanation if it were you he was pointing too as well.

 

This is not the PCGS board and if you want the PCGS board you don't have far to go.

The difference between here and across the street is the same difference between Congress and The Senate.

I personally think that we are a little more civil here and we don't cast aspersions lightly.

 

Patrick....Please refer to the thread whereby Greg talks about the implied improper storage of copper coins. Then open the links that I provided to the same exact coins that appeared in Heritage auctions in Late May. For some reason the coins do not have the color/appearance in Greg's photos that they did in the Heritage auction.

 

Believe me, my heart sank into my stomach when I saw this, but the truth often hurts.

 

 

I'm not going to confirm or deny that those or any others are the same coins. It has no bearing. However, I will state with 100% emphatic truth, that the only thing I have ever done to any coin is used commercially available coin cleaners on them. I mainly use MS70 and Jeweluster depending on the coin and the problem. These are both widely available at most coin shops and have been as long as I can remember. Oh, on rare occasion I'll use something like olive oil to soak crud off, and acetone, etc.

 

I have never ATed a coin. Occasionally MS70 can impart a blue or red color (not orange, but red) on copper. It happens a small percent of the time and is pretty much instantaneous when you wipe the coin to clean it. It can also leave a copper coin looking like acid dipped pink (ruined). Most of the time it just strips off all the dirt and grime and leaves a nice clean surface. It's a gamble you take when conserving coins - especially copper coins. The fact that MS70 can change the color of a small percentage of copper is widely known throughout the industry and has been for at least 20 years that I know of. It's never been hidden. In fact, I've mentioned it on both forums in the past as have many other people. It's not a secret. You can also remove the color if you want, but I usually like the look and rarely want to take another chance with touching a coin.

 

I'm sure if someone had an infinite amount of time on their hands, they could match up lots of coins I purchased, conserved, and resold. There is money to be made in taking ugly slabbed (or raw) coins and conserving them to make them look their best. Lots of clueless people submit hazed, dirty, darkly toned coins that look awful and as a result, they usually grade rather low. I'm more than happy to buy them, conserve them, and reslab them usually 1-2 points higher. Occasionally even more than 2 points, but every now and again, they slab lower or reveal hairlines and get bagged. It's a crapshoot. I've said it many times in the past, you'd be stupid not to make the coin you're submitting the best looking as possible. You'll only get 3-5 seconds of the graders eye...

 

And if anyone thinks that using MS70 and Jeweluster on coins is doctoring, oh well... go back to buying your "original" blast white Morgans. There is nothing nefarious going on.

 

Most people know that I'm brutally honest. If anyone has any questions, I'll be more than happy to display this brutal honesty and answer them either in public or via PM/email. I've got nothing to hide.

[MAULEMALL]

Chinook if you are implying something you Better have your ducks in a row. And in all seriousness I think you need to explain exactly what you are Implying.

 

Patrick – Go back and reread the thread. Greg plainly stated that he treated the coins (or at least the 1914 MPL) with MS70. The pictures speak for themselves without any implication necessary on the part of Chinook.

 

I am under the impression that he is implying that Greg doctered the coin to enhance the color.

MS70 is a cleaner if I am not mistaken...Not unlike acitone. Just a milder form of cleaner.

I don't believe MS70 can color a coin or am I incorrect?

Chinook (in my opinion) is implying something a little more sinister when he Posted that coin.AND pointed to it as an example of Whats Wrong with the Hobby.

Cleaning the Gunk off a coin and Docxtering a coin are 2 COMPLETELY different things and I will not sit around and see a VALUED member of these boards dennigrated without an explanation.

 

I would expect and demand an explanation if it were you he was pointing too as well.

 

This is not the PCGS board and if you want the PCGS board you don't have far to go.

The difference between here and across the street is the same difference between Congress and The Senate.

I personally think that we are a little more civil here and we don't cast aspersions lightly.

 

Patrick....Please refer to the thread whereby Greg talks about the implied improper storage of copper coins. Then open the links that I provided to the same exact coins that appeared in Heritage auctions in Late May. For some reason the coins do not have the color/appearance in Greg's photos that they did in the Heritage auction.

 

Believe me, my heart sank into my stomach when I saw this, but the truth often hurts.

 

 

I'm not going to confirm or deny that those or any others are the same coins. It has no bearing. However, I will state with 100% emphatic truth, that the only thing I have ever done to any coin is used commercially available coin cleaners on them. I mainly use MS70 and Jeweluster depending on the coin and the problem. These are both widely available at most coin shops and have been as long as I can remember. Oh, on rare occasion I'll use something like olive oil to soak crud off, and acetone, etc.

 

I have never ATed a coin. Occasionally MS70 can impart a blue or red color (not orange, but red) on copper. It happens a small percent of the time and is pretty much instantaneous when you wipe the coin to clean it. It can also leave a copper coin looking like acid dipped pink (ruined). Most of the time it just strips off all the dirt and grime and leaves a nice clean surface. It's a gamble you take when conserving coins - especially copper coins. The fact that MS70 can change the color of a small percentage of copper is widely known throughout the industry and has been for at least 20 years that I know of. It's never been hidden. In fact, I've mentioned it on both forums in the past as have many other people. It's not a secret. You can also remove the color if you want, but I usually like the look and rarely want to take another chance with touching a coin.

 

I'm sure if someone had an infinite amount of time on their hands, they could match up lots of coins I purchased, conserved, and resold. There is money to be made in taking ugly slabbed (or raw) coins and conserving them to make them look their best. Lots of clueless people submit hazed, dirty, darkly toned coins that look awful and as a result, they usually grade rather low. I'm more than happy to buy them, conserve them, and reslab them usually 1-2 points higher. Occasionally even more than 2 points, but every now and again, they slab lower or reveal hairlines and get bagged. It's a crapshoot. I've said it many times in the past, you'd be stupid not to make the coin you're submitting the best looking as possible. You'll only get 3-5 seconds of the graders eye...

 

And if anyone thinks that using MS70 and Jeweluster on coins is doctoring, oh well... go back to buying your "original" blast white Morgans. There is nothing nefarious going on.

 

Most people know that I'm brutally honest. If anyone has any questions, I'll be more than happy to display this brutal honesty and answer them either in public of via PM/email. I've got nothing to hide.

He said it I not only buy it I endorse it.