currentcoin Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Former Title " What is with all the Acronyms for coins" I am currently searching for Full Band Roosevelt dimes. And, I was pondering about one of the dimes I have found. It is a 1953-S and it has the full upper and lower bands ,but the letters around the rim are all blended into the rim. On the obverse IN and WE have disappeared. It will be a low grade but still, the coin would make Full Band (at PCGS) or Full Torch (at NGC) or any one else’s designation . But the coin is a piece of cr*p. So what good are the designation that do not tell about the quality of the coin. The designations only describe some obscure detail that in most cases means nothing . Have you ever seen a 1954-S Jefferson nickel with FS and no windows or door on Monticello. A Franklin half with FBL and mushy detail or a Standing Liberty quarter with FH and no rivets. Yet coins with less then desirable strike rate premium prices for minor details. To much emphasis is placed on one detail and not on the coin in it’s entirety. It is well documented what details are the first to go (for what ever reason) on all our American coins. There is little mystery as to what would constitute a full strike for any series. Prime examples exist for all our common coins at the grading services, museums and most shows. It is in order though to honor a truly well struck coin that has all original detail regardless of it’s state of preservation (grade). These coins from all series are coins that deserve a premium price. Not because one detail is there but because all detail is there. Full Strike(FS) can be a designation that could be use for all coins that show the detail that most coins lack. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyBop Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 thats one opinion and yes, these type of coins are found. I'll comment on both Frankies and Full Torchie Roosies..... Certian issues such as the 53s ones for both series are weakly struck, however, some sharply struck ones exist but these were probably some of the first coins off of the dies and are extremely scarce... A good example would be to compare a 49 Frankie to a 53, the 53 was generaly a weak strike at all three mints, San Franciso being the worst, but the 49, sharply struck with lots of definition. These examples can also be found in Roosies so to the well versed Roosie collector, they know better then to use a 53s for this arguement. Overall, my FBL Franklins have a awesome strike... Same goes for my FT Roosies.... on any given series you can always find a particular year where it is known for a mushy strike. I believe that in general, these designations do indicate a solid strike and I base this off of my own personal collection and also the thousands of coins I have viewed all around the country. Your idea of Full Strike has been mentioned by many in the past.. its not a bad idea, I doubt the grading companys would ever do it... By focusing on small points of the coins (fbl, fs, ft, fsb) they have created a nice conditional rarity market and buisness is good for them..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barberlover-migration Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 It was done for 2 reasons 1. to create a market for the graDding companies and 2. to increase the value of designation coins. The coin i think that is the most contraversial designation coin that hasn't happened yet but might is the full horn buffalo nickle. can you imagine what that would do to the buffalo nickle market for those people who currently own alot of coins that loose most of there value or make some people very happy? Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 Hi Glen If you can figure out who made the following statement then you'll have your answer to your question. "I feel that the 6 step designation should be left to the ultra specialists at this time. I think it is similar to Mercury dimes with "full bands" and "fully rounded bands." I think the 6 steps designation might bring more confusion into the market place and may be a negative." And finally, it just doesn't really matter! Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
classicalman-migration Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 For me the whole is eye appeal. After all, the designs were made with those elements in full detail (FBL, Split Bands, Full Head, etc.) Only because of their placement opposite a part of the coin which took metal away from the design are they sometimes not in detail. (among other reasons, weak strike pressure, etc). To look at a vibrant Franklin half or Mercury dime or Standing Liberty Quarter without the full details and then to see one with the full head, etc, is like night and day, such a striking difference and much more "complete" to the eye. As to the Indian head nickel, the added "plus" in my eye is the split tail, to be able to have the strike such that I can see the flare of the tail is "completeness" of the strike to me. To designate them on slabs is bit of "hype" perhaps, however, it does indicate (for the most part) a better than average strike, which to me should be a part of the overall grade anyway. Two coins with equal luster and clean fields and devices, but if one has "full bands" and the other doesn't, then in my mind one is a "65" and the other a "66" just for the better strike. Guess I am rambling, but I hope you get my drift... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jom Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 Ah...I love this subject. Does the designation "do" anything. No, not really. It inflates the value of many coins that really don't deserve it. Why? Because many of these so-called FB (or what have you) coins are not FULL STRIKE coins. Yes, it absolutely comes down to eye appeal and, yes, a better struck coin is more eye appealing than one that isn't. But the fact remains that I can find you a non-FB Merc Dime, for example, that is more eye appealing that a FB of the same date even if all else is equal (luster, color etc). The FB coin could have strike weakness around the perifery for example. How many times do you see FH Standers with less than full shield? To me the coin is ONLY worth a premium unless it is FULLY STRUCK. And God help us if they go doing so sort of idiotic Full Horn on the Buffalo. I don't know how many times I've seen "full horn" Buffs that are horribly struck elsewhere. To me, it's just an opportunity to get nice coins at a discount if I find, for example, an "almost" FH Stander...especially a date that is expensive in FH. So, what does these designations do? Nothing. If you know how to look for eye appealing coins and full strikes who the hell needs some lame designation on a holder? jom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wihlborg Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 jom, So, what does these designations do? Nothing. If you know how to look for eye appealing coins and full strikes who the hell needs some lame designation on a holder? As I have posted a number of times in the past, this is exactly how I feel about designations. I buy coins not designations. If I have a choice between two coins in the same grade, one with excellent eye appeal and no designation and the other not as nice as the first but with a designation, I would choose the first coin every time. I do own coins with designations on the label, but they were bought because they are nice coins not because they have some designation. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 who the hell needs some lame designation on a holder? Eh, be careful there Jom, there are people out there who still believe in fairytales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 MISNOMER Some guy paid to certify this coin. PCG$ thinks it's a MS65 coin! And the guy wants 30 bucks for it. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyBop Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Its no secret, I'm all for the designations, especially FBL and Full Torchie.... Everytime this subject comes up, nobody mentions the designations for Morgan dollars such as DMPL or PL....... or even proofs for that matter such as CAM or DCAM.... Coppers rd or bn....... your thoughts anyone..... yeah or nay to these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Its no secret, I'm all for the designations, especially FBL and Full Torchie.... Everytime this subject comes up, nobody mentions the designations for Morgan dollars such as DMPL or PL....... or even proofs for that matter such as CAM or DCAM.... Coppers rd or bn....... your thoughts anyone..... yeah or nay to these? OK, I'll give this a try. But first, Hi Lucy Surface phenomenoms are an entirely different subject matter then 3 deminsional charactoristics of coins. (Please excuse the mispellings, didn't bother to look them up.) Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarguli Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Its no secret, I'm all for the designations, especially FBL and Full Torchie.... Everytime this subject comes up, nobody mentions the designations for Morgan dollars such as DMPL or PL....... or even proofs for that matter such as CAM or DCAM.... Coppers rd or bn....... your thoughts anyone..... yeah or nay to these? You say you like designations like FBL & FT. Would that be the FBL that is all 7 bell lines (NGC) or the FBL that is only 3 of 7 lines (PCGS)? For FT do you want just the bands split (PCGS) or the bands and torch lines (NGC)? Same designation, but totally different standard. PL/DPL, CAM/UCAM, RD/RB/BN are surface designations. FT & FBL are strike designations that don't really tell you about the strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wihlborg Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 You say you like designations like FBL & FT. Would that be the FBL that is all 7 bell lines (NGC) or the FBL that is only 3 of 7 lines (PCGS)? For FT do you want just the bands split (PCGS) or the bands and torch lines (NGC)? Same designation, but totally different standard. Greg, This is another great example of why I don’t care about these designations, the grading companies can’t agree themselves what it takes to meet them. I feel that if some designation is important to you, than you will know what standard it needs to meet for you to be satisfied and you can search for coins that meet your requirements on your own. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyBop Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I love the full 7 bell lines and these are easily found in both holders..... Full Torchies its too early in the ballgame for me to tell..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentcoin Posted May 30, 2003 Author Share Posted May 30, 2003 Lucy you mean to say you like a full struck coin and not just FBL? By the way I never got a BeeBoop Alula? When I first logged on. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarguli Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 I love the full 7 bell lines and these are easily found in both holders..... Maybe, but they are always found in NGC slabs and sometimes found in PCGS slabs. Anyone know what standard ANACS uses? Buying a coin based on the designation can be a problem. Take a look at some of the pops. PCGS Population v. NGC Population 1951-S: 653 v. 36 1952-S: 413 v. 12 1953: 788 v. 19 1953-S: 33 v. 3 1954-S: 1600 v. 18 1960: 2834 v. 58 1961: 555 v. 18 1962: 638 v. 20 1963: 570 v. 5 This designation has made some rare coins common by one standard. Who would think that 1963 with true FBL is that rare? The same will happen with FT. Until the services adopt a Full Strike designation, these semi-designations will be used to lure the collector into thinking that they have a rarer coin. Why not use 4 bell lines or 5? Why is 3 bell lines good? What about 6 bell lines, but only 2 of the bottom lines? It's not a FBL, but it is a better struck coin that most 3 bell line FBL coins. Which is better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyBop Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 sorry currentcoin... Be Bop A Lula!!!!! I want my Frankies as fully struck and as close to the original design as possible..... I do search for all 7 Bell lines in both NGC and PCGs holders.... My main searches have been on PCGs for my Reg. set, but the day is coming when I also do a NGC reg set. I find a killer 7 full bell line 1954s Frankie raw at the recent Denver coin show, this one has the best strike I have ever seen on a s mint Frankie as yes, the strike is typically weak on these issues beggining in the early 50s, but solid strong strikes can be found, they are however very scarce..... I buy tons of raw coins and submit for grading, checking for super full 7 bell lines is part of the fun of the hunt for me....as well as three wisps of hair on the obverse, and detail in frankies head.... I found this gem also in Denver. this GEM actually has a shot at a ms66, and the bell lines are 7 and are full. This one has been sent in for grading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentcoin Posted May 30, 2003 Author Share Posted May 30, 2003 Your right I can see Frankie's sideburns. Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyBop Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Why not use 4 bell lines or 5? Why is 3 bell lines good? What about 6 bell lines, but only 2 of the bottom lines? It's not a FBL, but it is a better struck coin that most 3 bell line FBL coins. Which is better? again, I go for the full 7, these coins become HepKitty approved!!!! I have looked at literally thousands of Frankies and I will say many full 7 liners are found in PCGs holders and will disagree with the notion that NGC is 100%. I say this because I was at a small shop in Santa Fe several months back and they had a good 20 or so NGC Frankies.. I was shocked to find atleast half of his franklins wouldn't even go FBL with PCGs..?? This was very bizzare that I would encounter so many in one store..? I have seen many NGC Frankies and yes, the bell lines are super... I don't understand what was goin' on with the ones this dealer had.... I believe this to be some weird exception....? My NGC Frankie collection is growing and I love em, and I am also starting to like the white holder... Its great for showing colors... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Hi Glen If you can figure out who made the following statement then you'll have your answer to your question. "I feel that the 6 step designation should be left to the ultra specialists at this time. I think it is similar to Mercury dimes with "full bands" and "fully rounded bands." I think the 6 steps designation might bring more confusion into the market place and may be a negative." And finally, it just doesn't really matter! Leo Anyone want to give this a try or do we already know the answer to this? Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 sorry currentcoin... Be Bop A Lula!!!!! I want my Frankies as fully struck and as close to the original design as possible..... I do search for all 7 Bell lines in both NGC and PCGs holders.... My main searches have been on PCGs for my Reg. set, but the day is coming when I also do a NGC reg set. I find a killer 7 full bell line 1954s Frankie raw at the recent Denver coin show, this one has the best strike I have ever seen on a s mint Frankie as yes, the strike is typically weak on these issues beggining in the early 50s, but solid strong strikes can be found, they are however very scarce..... I buy tons of raw coins and submit for grading, checking for super full 7 bell lines is part of the fun of the hunt for me....as well as three wisps of hair on the obverse, and detail in frankies head.... I found this gem also in Denver. this GEM actually has a shot at a ms66, and the bell lines are 7 and are full. This one has been sent in for grading. Seeing a business strike Franklin half with that much hair detail is a first for me. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmarguli Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Hi Glen If you can figure out who made the following statement then you'll have your answer to your question. "I feel that the 6 step designation should be left to the ultra specialists at this time. I think it is similar to Mercury dimes with "full bands" and "fully rounded bands." I think the 6 steps designation might bring more confusion into the market place and may be a negative." And finally, it just doesn't really matter! Leo Anyone want to give this a try or do we already know the answer to this? Leo I think we know who said this. It's none other than King Hall. I still don't understand how you can have a FULL step coin without actually having ALL the steps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Hi Glen If you can figure out who made the following statement then you'll have your answer to your question. "I feel that the 6 step designation should be left to the ultra specialists at this time. I think it is similar to Mercury dimes with "full bands" and "fully rounded bands." I think the 6 steps designation might bring more confusion into the market place and may be a negative." And finally, it just doesn't really matter! Leo Anyone want to give this a try or do we already know the answer to this? Leo I think we know who said this. It's none other than King Hall. I still don't understand how you can have a FULL step coin without actually having ALL the steps. Greg You are correct, not to say no-one else saw Frank Corso's thread when so and so finally addressed this issue. But this statement says it all, No, PCG$ does not really make an effort to put fully strucked coins in their holders, we leave that up to the collectors. We only like to play charrades and cater to the truly ignorant. As for the FS deliemma, history has dictated itself to where we are today. We have a little of everything with the grading companies. I believe the NGC pops are a mixture of 5 and 6 step coins. Unless their new 6 step policy began with their new holders. In the later part of the ninties, I had a tough time adding a NGC FS nickel to my collection until I finally just gave up. To date, I do not have a NGC business strike in my collection. I have a few proofs but no business strike FS Jeffersons. Leo Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtrader3 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Here is a '58-D Frankie that is pretty well struck and doubled, to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtrader3 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Love those '58D's. Here is a Dime for your viewing pleasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtrader3 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Just for chuckles, here is another '58-D' Washington (this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtrader3 Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 And finally, a '58-P Frankie with color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyBop Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
currentcoin Posted May 31, 2003 Author Share Posted May 31, 2003 Good gallllly mis molly. Color and a high grade NICE....... Lucy Glen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leothelion Posted May 31, 2003 Share Posted May 31, 2003 What? No cents or nickels? Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
