86'd by an 86 Morgan...and laughing about it

[enriched-migration]

Yeah, I paid WAY too much for a pretty 64 '86-P Morgan graded by the OTHER guys. And now I know I spent too much on most of my other coins too (well, I paid retail and sold wholesale-gotta keep you guys in business, eh?). I was warned that it was too much but I did it anyway. It fetched less than 1/4 of what I paid ($700) with the Goldbergs. I followed the advice of the other forum and sold my coins through them. My reserve was higher and I'll paid the C note to get the coin back.

 

I netted about a 10% loss with the others, primarily type gold, though a scarce NGC 45 '60-s $3 that looked a bit "strange" fetched $2200-my only 'winner.' After all is said and done I think I'll end up with $7,000, a wild NGC 62 1923 $20 Saint with neat colors, a '23 Peace NGC 65 $1 with blotchy toning and the ill-fated '86 Morgan. That will end my numismatic experience in THIS lifetime.

 

Needless to say this was a very expensive lesson...one I should have learned before. But I suffer from uncontrollable compulsions and poor decision-making, and this was but another example.

 

After whining, I now am laughing. There is no time for self-pity and I still have much to be grateful for, of course. This money that I spent on coins came from social security that granted me a retroactive cash refund of $13,000. I spent most of this on coins. As all know, collecting comes first, but I was hoping to hedge agains blowing the whole thing. I bought a piece of art that was worth $3G to me at the time. I knew nothing of market conditions, etc., etc. Obviously, no one else thinks that coin is worth that much to them.

 

My disability income has increased since these coins were purchased. I will no longer be buying coins or bullion. And I can still go to Europe...

 

My coin collecting days are over. Unless someone comes along and meets my price-very doubtful at this point-I'll take the 86 with me when I "86."

 

I wish everyone well-yes, Michael and Carl, you were right. Thanks Adrian, FC57, NGC and 'the other guys.'

 

Keep on boppin', Lucy. May all your Frankies be rainbow MS-70's!

 

Peace and farewell,

barney aka enriched

[truthteller]

I am truly sorry things did not turn out as well as expected. Unfortunately, coins are the same as other collectibles, knowledge is important as well as a helpful hand. Most dealers can be fair to deal with, but many know when there is money to be made and someone who can be convinced to buy at uncomfortable levels. It is the nature of any business. I hope this does not end your hobby days, and you have learned a valuable lesson of life, much like I did when growing up in the hobby. It's the price of education. May I recommend smaller investments of capital for the hobby and maybe start again a bit more slowly? This can be a rewarding hobby, with history and challenges, but one must know who and what to avoid. Good luck and I hope to see you post again after a bit of reflection.

 

TRUTH

[LucyBop]

Barney honey, I too have made decisions that never pann'd out for me.... But life continues and I am trying to enjoy every day.... And nothing like a Fats Domino cd to make me feel better... Pm me your addy, I want to send you something....

 

Remember, the HepKitty loves you.

 

Lucille

[IrishMike]

There should be a balance in this hobby between purchasing coins and learning about the hobby. If you dive into the deep end of the pool without knowing how to swim you might not survive it or have to dodge the pool sharks to get out. There is much more to this hobby then spending money. The history of coins, the comarderie and the endless study of them can be more rewarding then writing someone a check. The older I get the less concerned I am with ownership and the more fun I derive from the other aspects.

 

Barney, I wish you the best of luck in endeavors you choose to pursue.

[gmarguli]

Yeah, I paid WAY too much for a pretty 64 '86-P Morgan graded by the OTHER guys. And now I know I spent too much on most of my other coins too (well, I paid retail and sold wholesale-gotta keep you guys in business, eh?). I was warned that it was too much but I did it anyway. It fetched less than 1/4 of what I paid ($700) with the Goldbergs. I followed the advice of the other forum and sold my coins through them. My reserve was higher and I'll paid the C note to get the coin back.

 

 

It's hard to spend too much if you purchase coin that you like and brings you enjoyment. If you purchased them for investment, well....

 

If I recall correctly, this coin was bid to around $1,800 on eBay before you ended the auction early. I believe TBT was the then current high bidder, but I might be mistaken.

 

If you have no desire to remain in coins, then sell the coin for what you can get and move on. I'm sure you would find a lot of buyers.

 

Contact TBT or Adrian and ask them for an offer. You're not getting your $3,000 back, but you'll likely get a fair market price.

 

Don't let this coin eat at you.

[gmarguli]

Their site lists that the coin was NOT bought back by the owner. It shows a sale price of $805.

[TomB]

Perhaps he bought it back for $700 as the high bidder and the $100 he said he was out was really the 15% buyer's premium for the coin. Just a hunch.

[MarkFeld]

Tom, your "hunch" makes sense, but, I sure hope it's wrong. Barney should have been able to obtain a buback fee/arrangement of approximately 5% on his coin, and not have to cough up the 15%, if he bought it back.

[enriched-migration]

I emailed Larry Weinstock and told him to place a $2000 reserve on the coin. If it has sold at that price I will be quite upset. I sent him a nice letter and wished to clarify my situation. All he sent was "settlement date is July 9." No name, no dear sir, no thank you, no answer to my questions. Yes, I was a difficult customer and my 4-figure business is not worthy of more service from the high-and-mighty Goldbergs.

 

Still, I'm glad this is over. Just send me my dollar and the $7000 or whatever the proceeds are and I'll go quietly on my way.

 

Yes, I did stop the ebay auction at $1800. I had decided to keep the coin at that time then changed my mind later when I realized that I really didn't have a desire to remain in coins. I have a well-documented psychological problem and I do strange things sometimes. Compulsive buying of an overpriced coin is a perfect example.

 

By the way, Evan Gale of Aspen Park rare coins was the fine salesman who sold me the coin last September in Long Beach. And I traded $3000 worth of coins for it. End of story.

 

Farewell and thanks,

barney aka enriched

[enriched-migration]

I lost the coin. Despite this email correspondence where I specifically told Larry Weinstock to set a $2000 reserve on the item, I have been screwed. May they all rot.

 

I'm getting $600, a nice tidy $2500.

 This message is not flagged. [ Flag Message - Mark as Unread ]

Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:39:43 -0700 (PDT)

From: "Barney Plisko"  | This is spam | Add to Address Book

Subject: no luck on the 1886 Morgan and a modest loss on the rest

To: "Brian Weinstock (Goldberg Coins)"

 

 

Well, that's it, Larry.

 

Please send the proceeds of the auction and the Morgan

dollar to the Oregon address stated below. I expect

that $100 will be deducted from the amount to cover

the 5% buyback on the '86. I understand that it will

take some time for the auction business to be

processed.

 

Thank you,

Barnett A. Plisko

\

 

 

--- "Brian Weinstock (Goldberg Coins)"

wrote:

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Barney Plisko

> To: Brian Weinstock (Goldberg Coins)

> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:24 PM

> Subject: Re: PLISKO AUCTION-and an apology

>

>

> Hi Brian,

>

> I'd like to set reserves on two of my thirteen

> coins. Here are the lot numbers, descriptions and

> reserves. Please advise my of the cost involved

> before executing my request:

>

> Lot 732 (item #58015) 1886 Morgan $1 PCGS 64

> Reserve: $2000 BB = $ 100

> Lot 887 (item #58018) 1860-s Gold $3 NGC 45

> Reserve: $1500 BB = $ 75

>

> These are my two priciest items and will protect

> me from significant loss. I purchased the other

> coins fairly close to current market value, with the

> exception of a nice 1884-cc rainbow dollar. I'll let

> the market decide its fate.

>

> Thanks,

> Barnett A. Plisko

>

> "Brian Weinstock (Goldberg Coins)"

> wrote:

> Thank you for your apology. There are three ways

> to protect your coin(s).

> 1. Place a reserve on the coin and only pay a

> buy-back fee if it does not

> reach the reserve price on the floor. 2. Bid

> live on the floor and pay a

> 15% of hammer price as the Buyers premium. 3.

> Register with e-Bay live and

> bid on the coin while the sale is taking place.

> This however, carries a 20%

> Buyers premium.

>

> I suggest that you place a reserve on the

> coin(s) and deal with the buy-back

> fee of only 5%. The market is hot and you may

> get lucky.

>

> Please advise, Brian

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "Barney Plisko"

> To: "Brian Weinstock (Goldberg Coins)"

> Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 8:15 PM

> Subject: PLISKO AUCTION-and an apology

>

>

> > Dear Mr. Weinstock,

> >

> > Please accept my apology for my childish

> emails and

> > phone conversations. Obviously, I know nothing

> about

> > coins and am frustrated by my foolish

> purchases. I

> > have discussed the matter with knowledgeable

> > numismatists and will see how the auction goes

> in less

> > than two weeks.

> >

> > I have viewed the catalog on-line and am

> pleased by

> > the depiction of the coins, although I think

> the

> > levels are still set too low on some of them.

> We will

> > just let the market speak for itself, I

> suppose. I

> > know I paid too much for most of the coins. So

> it

> > goes...

> >

> > Please clarify one thing for me. I assume that

> I will

> > be able to buy back a coin if it does not meet

> a

> > desired level. Is this correct? If so what is

> the

> > procedure? There is one coin that I expect to

> buy

> > back: the '86 Morgan. The others will probably

> do OK.

> >

> > I have a new address in OR where I would like

> the

> > check to be sent:

> >

> > Barnett A. Plisko

> >

> > Thank you for your patience and

> professionalism. I

> > wish you and the Goldbergs the best.

> >

> > Sincerely,

> > Barnett A. Plisko

> >

> >

> >

> > __________________________________

> > Do you Yahoo!?

> > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

> > http://search.yahoo.com

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Do you Yahoo!?

> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

>

 

 

__________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

http://search.yahoo.com

 

 

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[dragon]

Which ever dealer sold that toned 86-P for $3000.00 should be reported to the ANA and the PNG IMO, as that is completely taking advantage of someone and blatant, gross overpricing by an unethical and unbelievably greedy dealer IMO.

 

Also, barring some unusual circumstances, any dealer that wouldn't be happy to buy back a recently sold coin for a minimum of 80% of the sale price is WAY overcharging, regardless of any lame excuses he/she may give IMO.

 

The dealer that 'stuck' Barney with that toned coin sounds like a real jerk to me.

 

dragon

[PQSeated]

Has anyone else here ever done business with Aspen Rare Coins?

[gmarguli]

I lost the coin. Despite this email correspondence where I specifically told Larry Weinstock to set a $2000 reserve on the item, I have been screwed. May they all rot.

 

Are you saying that they didn't place the reserve for you? If so and you have proof of asking for the reserve, I would think that they would be responsible for the difference between selling price and reserve price.

[TomB]

I am also confused about whether or not the reserve was asked for using the proper channels. The way the emails are strung together it is impossible to be completely clear and to know that nothing was left out.

 

I have done business with Evan Gale of Aspen Park Rare Coins and he has been a first rate dealer with me. I don't have any inside information as to what happened with this Morgan, heck, I have never even seen the coin, so I cannot comment on that. Evan, however, is well known and has wonderful material.

[TomB]

I just went to the Goldberg site and if the coin is lot 732 then it is a superb piece. Why is it only an MS64? There is the milling mark on the chin, but, what else limited the grade? It is also shown as selling for $805; it was not a buy-back coin. Sorry.

[CarlWohlforth]

I remember thinking that coin is accurately graded. I was with Barney when he bought that coin. There were a few bag marks if I remember correctly.

 

Barney traded some coins for the Morgan. He would not have gotten $3K for them if sold for cash.

 

Evan Gale did offer to buy the coin back shortly after the deal. At that time I believe the coin could have resold for at least $1,800. In fact the coin was on eBay and did reach $1,800 before the auction was ended early.

 

 

[TomB]

So, from what you are saying Carl, Barney did not pay $3,000 cash for this coin and he was offered a buyback of approximately $1,800 and Barney had an ebay auction stopped for the piece where it had reached $1,800. If these assertions are correct, and I am in no way inferring they are not, then it seems to me that Evan Gale deserves none of the criticism that was leveled against him. The issue comes down to whether or not Goldbergs properly executed a buyback reserve on the coin, or, was the buyback reserve not asked for properly.

[keithdagen]

Tom,

 

More of the info is available across the street, but the coin was received in a trade, and an opportunity was given to undo the deal, from what I read. There is a current thread, with links to the older threads from last year in them.

[CarlWohlforth]

Barney has said he paid around 3 grand for the coins he traded. Perhaps they could have been sold for %20 less, or around $2,500.

 

I understand that Evan offered to buy the Morgan back. I am not sure what the details of that offer were.

 

I watched the Morgan get to $1,800 at an eBay auction.

 

The only thing Evan could be criticized for was asking for a lot of money for the nicest toned Morgan at that Long Beach show. I probably would have done the same.

[Tradedollarnut]

Barney has said he paid around 3 grand for the coins he traded. Perhaps they could have been sold for %20 less, or around $2,500.

 

Perhaps. Or maybe he would have been lucky to get $2,000 for them. No way to know. But I agree completely with your final conclusion.

[TomB]

I agree. Here is how I now see this as having gone down, please note that this is just conjecture, albeit thought out conjecture.

 

1)Barney admits he does not know the market and he buys coins for $3,000; these coins may or may not be valued at $3,000 to the greater market

2)Using Carl's number of 20% for a discount on what Barney might have gotten for the coins we are left with an actual cash value of $2,400 for his coins and I must admit that I think this on the high side

3)Evan has a gorgeous Morgan that is already bid on ebay at $1,800 cash and he stops the auction to sell the coin to Barney

4)Barney does not pay cash, rather, he trades his $2,400 market value for the Morgan

5)If Evan is like most dealers, he will accept a trade of lesser coins for a greater coin but will build in an extra profit into the coins he is accepting in trade since he now has to sell a number of less attractive or desireable pieces instead of one monster coin

6)Evan may have had a cash price on the Morgan of $2,000 but he decides that he needs 20% extra because of the trade; we really don't know Evan's cash price but this is a realistic number given the live ebay auction bidding and a realistic discount because of a trade in lieu of cash

7)So, Evan has really sold the coin for $2,400 and offers a 75% ($1,800) buyback

 

I see nothing wrong in this scenario. The problem arises with the Goldberg auction buyback and we don't know who screwed up there.

[keithdagen]

Tom,

 

It appears that the buyback was requested by e-mail. I don't know how Goldberg works, but I know that the last time I consigned material to Heritage, I had to fill out a separate contract for the buyback bids I wished to place, and that both I and a rep from Heritage signed the buyback agreement.

[TomB]

I was thinking that that might be the case also, Keith. The times I have had a buyback agreement on coins I have had to sign the agreement. In this way the auction house is protected just in case the consignor claims that their 12 year old kid used the email and faked the agreement.

[gmarguli]

Just a little touch-up on your numbers.

 

1)Barney admits he does not know the market and he buys coins for $3,000; these coins may or may not be valued at $3,000 to the greater market

 

2)Using Carl's number of 20% for a discount on what Barney might have gotten for the coins we are left with an actual cash value of $2,400 for his coins and I must admit that I think this on the high side

 

He purchased 6 coins for a total of $3150. When used in trade, the dealer valued them at $2500. Basically, a 20% discount - which isn't really bad.

 

According to Barney, "Also, Evan Gale offered a full $2500 refund on the coin, though one of my trades already sold (the '60-O Seated Dollar). How's that?!". The dealer was willing to take back the coin for full value to him. Someone bid $1800 on the coin on eBay. I think TBT was the high bidder at the time the auction ended. That's a 28% discount. While 28% might sound high to many people, these coins can remain in inventory for a long time before selling and that mark-up might not be unreasonable.

 

[CarlWohlforth]

Close Tom. I don't believe Evan held an eBay auction though.

 

The eBay auction was held by Barney after he had the coin for a little while.

[TomB]

Thanks for the corrections on where I had mis-read or simply did not have enough information. I don't read the threads at PCGS so I would not have any of that information available to me. I'm glad we went through this excercise as it certainly puts a different light on the transaction and may very well change how some people view what happened.

[coinman1794]

Tom,

 

It appears that the buyback was requested by e-mail. I don't know how Goldberg works, but I know that the last time I consigned material to Heritage, I had to fill out a separate contract for the buyback bids I wished to place, and that both I and a rep from Heritage signed the buyback agreement.

 

The person he talked to in the e-mail made a suggestion, through e-mail, that he set the buy-backs. We need to find out if he ever got a response from Goldberg that would set in motion the process of getting a form filled out (or whatever Goldbergs proceedure is). From the info given, it seem like that is were the breakdown occured. If he asked to do it, and they never got the ball rolling, then that seems to be the problem. So, did you get any response from Goldbergs when you e-mailed them and said you wanted to set buybacks? If they did get the message, I would have expected them to inform you of the correct way to proceed, etc. (This is all just speculation, or course; based on the evidence at hand. I do not mean to insinuate that anyone did anything wrong).