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1794 Amon Carter $ in PF66

Started by gmarguli,

46 posts in this topic

gmarguli

gmarguli

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According to the current issue of NumisMatic News, Jay Parrino has purchased the Knoxville silver collection for "8 figures". Among the coins listed was the 1794 Amon Carter $ in PF66.

 

I believe this is a picture of the coin:

 

1794amoncarterdollar.jpg

 

 

TDN, didn't you want this coin? Well, here is your chance. Hey, I'll take that 1936 Elgin commem in NGC MS-68 that Legend has for sale as a finders fee. grin.gifgrin.gifgrin.gif

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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Don't you think it would be SPECIMEN Proof? I think NN made an error.....what else is in the collection?

 

My understanding is that the mint did not officially make "proofs" until a certain year. Special (proof) coins minted before that are called 'specimen' by the grading services.

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MarkFeld

MarkFeld

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The major grading services will also occasionally use the "Specimen" designation for a coin which appears to be specially made but which, for one or more reasons, is not quite convincing as a "Proof"' example.

 

Thus, the term "Specimen" can be used as a compromise or cover-your-butt designation - and I don't mean that critically.

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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what else is in the collection?

 

An 1883 Trade in NGC PF69 that is now listed at Albanese Rare Coins Inc. for $280,000.

1883-1T-pf69-ngc-1727946-049.jpg

 

Also listed was a 1792 Half Disme (no grade given).

 

That's all that was listed, but I'm sure it contained a ton more of coins.

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jtryka

jtryka

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That's a beauty, though I still don't like those old silver dollars with the goose on the reverse! 893whatthe.gif

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

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The Amon Carter 1794 is distinctive in three ways:

 

1. It is of awesome eye appeal (and grade).

2. It was struck from a very early die state -- same as the copper pattern.

3. It is a silver plug (and, I believe, it also has faint adjustment marks).

 

Serious numismatists should contemplate the implications of points 2 and 3.

 

EVP

 

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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Oh yea.....interesting thread about that dollar on the other side of the street. Did you catch it?

 

Yes, I did read it. It turned into a dealer bashing thread as quickly as normal over there.

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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The Knoxville Collection was one of the sets I really looked up to as I formed my own collection. I'm truly sad to see it go.

 

Yes, I'd give my eye teeth for that dollar, but I won't part with $3M big ones! Nor do I value that trade dollar at anything close to the asking price. Beautiful coins, tho!

 

Here's another Knoxville coin that Legend just sold:

 

3862_1849o8hdimepcms68.JPG

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TomB

TomB

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Holy Smokes! What a half dime! 893whatthe.gif Does it look significantly different in person from the image? That coin is amazing. If you can share, how much did it sell for?

 

I'm not familiar with plugged dollars from 1794, however, I am familiar with estimates of the frequency of plugged dollars from 1795. As for both a plug and adjustment marks, what do you think happened? I would think that the likely sequence was that it was an underweight planchet that had the plug inserted first, was then overweight, and then was shaved down to bring within tolerance. Do you think the opposite is more likely?

 

Do you think that this was a special striking since it was likely a very early die state, similar to the copper pattern? If so, then that might explain the doubly worked on planchet.

 

Is the plug visible near the goiter-like area on the obverse?

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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The half dime was just sold in the $25k+ range. Legend also sold the only PCGS MS68 Bust Half from the Knoxville collection earlier in the month. I haven't seen the coin, but I was told that the image didn't do it justice! blush.gif

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

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I haven't seen the coin, but I was told that the image didn't do it justice!

 

Hmmm... The coin looks pretty awesome from the image, so if what you say is true then the coin must be doubly outta this world in real life! I think we should give the image-taker a raise! wink.gif

 

As for the 1794, the silver plug is that faint but visible arc on the obverse. Imagine the "prescience" of the Mint people that they knew to use the plugs so early on... But, why didn't they use a "good" planchet for the specimen striking?

 

EVP

 

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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Hmmm... The coin looks pretty awesome from the image, so if what you say is true then the coin must be doubly outta this world in real life! I think we should give the image-taker a raise! wink.gif

 

What are you talking about. If the coin looked "doubly outta this world in real life" and this is the best photo the image taker could come up with, I think he should be demoted until he learns to capture the actual look of the coins. Perhaps he should be forced to practice photographing Sacagaweas until he gets the photos 100% accurate. I need me a goodevil.gif icon that is always showing the evil side winning.....

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TomB

TomB

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Agreed, burn the image taker! boo.gif

 

Anyway, my thought on the underweight planchet for the specimen striking might be that this was all they had and they used it. Perhaps a lame explanation, however, the Mint was not exactly well-stocked or equiped at the time.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

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Two comments:

 

1. I have it on great authority that the image-taker is trying very hard and is generally a very nice guy. No burning of him is necessary, nor is a demotion to Sacs necessary either.

 

2. I think TomB's explanation is reasonable... But, hopefully I can get Dave Perkins to comment on this coin some day.

 

EVP

 

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BankNote1

BankNote1

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Amon Carter was one of the Great Numismatists! He not only had the funds to buy the best but he shared his knowledge and enthusiasm with poorer collectors as well.

 

I have only one word for that 1794 Dollar! Good Googley Moogley!!! 893applaud-thumb.gif

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Hoot

Hoot

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Truly amazing coins! Thanks for the pics Greg and EVP. smile.gif Thanks to everyone for all the info. Seems improbable that such coins exist!!!

 

Burn the picture taker!!! goodevil.gif

 

Hoot insane.gif

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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Truly amazing coins! Thanks for the pics Greg and EVP. smile.gif Thanks to everyone for all the info. Seems improbable that such coins exist!!!

 

Actually, thanks to TDN who emailed me the pic of this coin a long time ago.

 

I wonder if one of our forum members will be the new owner of this coin? A little blurb on him indicates he owns an 1804 $.

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EVillageProwler

EVillageProwler

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I wonder if one of our forum members will be the new owner of this coin? A little blurb on him indicates he owns an 1804 $

 

Greg,

 

It wasn't clear to me from the blurb that he actually owns an 1804. I read that blurb a few times to make sure -- because I think he does not own one. In any case, we'll know soon enough as he'll be at LB and I'll ask him.

 

If he does obtain the Carter 1794 specimen, then I will have to beg him to allow me to do a "Demi Moore" over that coin!

 

EVP

 

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IrishMike

IrishMike

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What is the story behind the Knoxville collection, I am sure I am not the only familiar with it? I would like to hear some insight on the collection.

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gmarguli

gmarguli

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It wasn't clear to me from the blurb that he actually owns an 1804. I read that blurb a few times to make sure -- because I think he does not own one. In any case, we'll know soon enough as he'll be at LB and I'll ask him.

 

I read it a couple of times also, but came to the conclusion that he did own an 1804. Here is the quote: Highlights include the King of Siam 1804 dollar as part of a 38-coin private collection of Bust dollars in the Cardinal Collection, [...].

 

Do you know who Cardinal is? From a comment he made in the forums, I kind of got the idea that he wouldn't be making himself known to people at the show. He wanted to remain anonymous.

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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I do not believe that Cardinal owns an 1804 dollar as of yet.... but I could be wrong.

 

Why would they break up the King of Siam set? That doesn't make sense at all...

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