Auction twist on Peacegate.

[truthteller]

Dealer places NCG66* Peace dollar in a well publicized coin auction. Coin sells for $14K. Buyer is really proud and places coin for all to see on coin forums. Buyer finds out the coin might be AT. What is the recourse? Do the same issues come into play? What if the buyer is retail, and not a dealer? Does the auction house have some responsibility?

 

 

 

TRUTH

[the_Thing ®]

All toned coins might be AT. Is there a way to be 100% sure with any coin, unless 3 different people and a TPG company see it come out of a sealed mint bag?

[TerrapinWill]

If anyone has a beef, it's with the TPG. The seller of the coin represented the coin as being in a TPG and graded MS66*. If there was substantial evidence (as there is in peacgate), the TPG should take th ecoin off the market....but not for 14K.....but rather FMV for MS66. JMHO. Or the coin could be kept by purchaser.

 

but I guess I would also ask this question. If NGC said it's NT and the buyer thinks it's NT and was willing to pay 14K for it......what has changed?

[the_Thing ®]

Whoever submitted the coin to NGC made up a story of being in an envelope for 80 years. Is that correct? Who submitted the coin to NGC?

[truthteller]

"but I guess I would also ask this question. If NGC said it's NT and the buyer thinks it's NT and was willing to pay 14K for it......what has changed?"

 

 

Good response. What if the collector believes it to be real for 5 years. Then, he/she is subsequently convinced the coin is AT. A learning experience? Or a change of heart? Maybe the buyer can't sell the coin at any price because the market has changed, does that mean the buyer can claim the TPG is now responsible?

 

 

 

TRUTH

[truthteller]

Whoever submitted the coin to NGC made up a story of being in an envelope for 80 years. Is that correct? Who submitted the coin to NGC?

 

 

The story is subject to controversy because anyone can deny the story. I have purchased many coins with a "story", only to find out it was a lie, big lie and bigger lie. The coin was submitted by the "mysterious" seller, who has yet to be named.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[EZ_E]

Whoever submitted the coin to NGC made up a story of being in an envelope for 80 years. Is that correct? Who submitted the coin to NGC?

 

 

The story is subject to controversy because anyone can deny the story. I have purchased many coins with a "story", only to find out it was a lie, big lie and bigger lie. The coin was submitted by the "mysterious" seller, who has yet to be named.

 

 

 

TRUTH

 

Well, I believe it 'cause my adopted cousin's niece thrice removed told me it was so!

[TerrapinWill]

I will always return to the subjective nature of both grading and identiication of NT v AT. No one should buy a coin based on someone elses opinion. if I saw that coin raw and thought it was NT and bought it for $300....then submitted it to NGC and they said QC/BB....I shouldnt have any recourse, as I thought it was NT and bought it because I thought it was NT. if it gets bagged, I now have a $300 AT Peace Dollar. This is just the reverse of what has actually happened. Someone paid $55 and got the coin in a coffin. Someone else saw an opportunity for crazy profit. Another person saw the same opportunity. Now he's holding the bag, and is SOL if you ask me. If you are an educated collector/Dealer and you buy a coin based on your opinion, it's your fault. If you buy a coin based on someone elses opinion, same difference. You made a choice, you bear responsibility.

 

To me this is where caveat emptour applies. You have knowledge and experience, yet you still buy something suspicious. Seems to me it's you that bears full responsibility. if you can't find a bigger fool, guess who the biggest fool is?

[CTcollector]

I will always return to the subjective nature of both grading and identiication of NT v AT. No one should buy a coin based on someone elses opinion. if I saw that coin raw and thought it was NT and bought it for $300....then submitted it to NGC and they said QC/BB....I shouldnt have any recourse, as I thought it was NT and bought it because I thought it was NT. if it gets bagged, I now have a $300 AT Peace Dollar. This is just the reverse of what has actually happened. Someone paid $55 and got the coin in a coffin. Someone else saw an opportunity for crazy profit. Another person saw the same opportunity. Now he's holding the bag, and is SOL if you ask me. If you are an educated collector/Dealer and you buy a coin based on your opinion, it's your fault. If you buy a coin based on someone elses opinion, same difference. You made a choice, you bear responsibility.

 

To me this is where caveat emptour applies. You have knowledge and experience, yet you still buy something suspicious. Seems to me it's you that bears full responsibility. if you can't find a bigger fool, guess who the biggest fool is?

 

I don't think anyone will shed any tears if the seller gets stuck with that coin.

 

But take it a step further and lets say a legitimate collector purchased that coin from the seller. Part of that collector's decision of purchasing that coin were the FALSE REPRESENTATIONS made by the dealer in their advertising. The coin was said to have resided untouched in an envelope for 80years. We now know that is not true. So, lets say the circumstances that we know now about the coin being doctored come to light after a collector purchases the coin and return privledge passes - is it still caveat emptour ? The collector gets stuck with the huge loss and seller makes out like a bandit? Why if someone buys swamp land that was represented as prime real estae or a lemon car that was represented as top of the line in mint condition or a dog stock represented as the next IBM do they have recourse - but no one has recourse if they buy a falsely represented and cooked up coin that was supposedly independetly certified.

[jom]

Why if someone buys swamp land that was represented as prime real estae or a lemon car that was represented as top of the line in mint condition or a dog stock represented as the next IBM do they have recourse - but no one has recourse if they buy a falsely represented and cooked up coin that was supposedly independetly certified.

 

In the cases you listed the buyer DOES have recourse if the asset was improperly represented. If a buyer had bought this from Anaconda I'd think the buyer would have recourse (within a certain amount of time).

 

However, Anaconda bought this at auction (I think) and probably did so with the TPG certification in mind. I don't believe for a minute he would have paid anywhere near that amount if it was raw (obviously). On the other hand he is IN the coin business and sells these types of coins all of the time. He should know better. Therefore, IMO, both Crane and NGC should BOTH be responsible for the loss. Also, IMO, the person who submitted the coin to NGC and susequently sold it at auction should NOT be responsible. It was NGC who legitimized the coin in the first place.

 

jom

[TerrapinWill]

But take it a step further and lets say a legitimate collector purchased that coin from the seller. Part of that collector's decision of purchasing that coin were the FALSE REPRESENTATIONS made by the dealer in their advertising. The coin was said to have resided untouched in an envelope for 80years. We now know that is not true. So, lets say the circumstances that we know now about the coin being doctored come to light after a collector purchases the coin and return privledge passes - is it still caveat emptour ? The collector gets stuck with the huge loss and seller makes out like a bandit? Why if someone buys swamp land that was represented as prime real estae or a lemon car that was represented as top of the line in mint condition or a dog stock represented as the next IBM do they have recourse - but no one has recourse if they buy a falsely represented and cooked up coin that was supposedly independetly certified.

 

If the person who purchased the coin does so based on another persons representation of the coin, then it's caveat emptour. If a knowledgable/informed collector pays 50-70 times bid for a coin like that, they are on their own as far as I'm concerned. In a case like this, if you don't think it's legit based on what you know...take a pass. people who are not experienced collectors or knowledgable in toning of coins should not be spending that much on coins....simple as that. Coins are what I call a "find a bigger fool" market. Inherently a Peace Dollar is worth it's silver content. The only reason it is worth more is if you can find a fool bigger than you to by it. A coin is only worth what the last person paid for it as far as I'm concerned.

[CTcollector]

But take it a step further and lets say a legitimate collector purchased that coin from the seller. Part of that collector's decision of purchasing that coin were the FALSE REPRESENTATIONS made by the dealer in their advertising. The coin was said to have resided untouched in an envelope for 80years. We now know that is not true. So, lets say the circumstances that we know now about the coin being doctored come to light after a collector purchases the coin and return privledge passes - is it still caveat emptour ? The collector gets stuck with the huge loss and seller makes out like a bandit? Why if someone buys swamp land that was represented as prime real estae or a lemon car that was represented as top of the line in mint condition or a dog stock represented as the next IBM do they have recourse - but no one has recourse if they buy a falsely represented and cooked up coin that was supposedly independetly certified.

 

If the person who purchased the coin does so based on another persons representation of the coin, then it's caveat emptour. If a knowledgable/informed collector pays 50-70 times bid for a coin like that, they are on their own as far as I'm concerned. In a case like this, if you don't think it's legit based on what you know...take a pass. people who are not experienced collectors or knowledgable in toning of coins should not be spending that much on coins....simple as that. Coins are what I call a "find a bigger fool" market. Inherently a Peace Dollar is worth it's silver content. The only reason it is worth more is if you can find a fool bigger than you to by it. A coin is only worth what the last person paid for it as far as I'm concerned.

 

Well, fortunately for the rest of us "fools", we have the Federal Trade Commission Act and Truth in Advertising laws.

[TerrapinWill]

 

Well, fortunately for the rest of us "fools", we have the Federal Trade Commission Act and Truth in Advertising laws.

 

 

What does this mean?

[CTcollector]

I was having some fun with your response. Lets just agree to disagree at this point. thanks !

[IGWT]

The loser is the person who's holding the coin when the music stops playing. The music stopped playing while the coin was in the inventory of a dealer who has reaped the benefits of the toning craze. I can live with that result.

[truthteller]

It appears that the infamous Peace dollar is going back to NGC. I really don't know why the current owner would send it to NGC instead of the selling dealer. If NGC buys this coin back for anywhere near the transaction price, I'll be buying up every AT coin out there and make a killing sending them back to NGC.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[kranky]

It appears that the infamous Peace dollar is going back to NGC. I really don't know why the current owner would send it to NGC instead of the selling dealer. If NGC buys this coin back for anywhere near the transaction price, I'll be buying up every AT coin out there and make a killing sending them back to NGC.

 

Wouldn't it be better to sell them to me first for 50x sheet? That way we have a FMV established. Then when we collect on the guarantee, we'll split the money. If you think 50x sheet is too much, I'm flexible.

 

 

Just kidding, of course, but it illustrates the point that some believe the TPG should be on the hook for a near-unlimited amount if a coin is toned. To me that is the same as saying this 63 is overgraded, but I paid 68 money and that's what I deserve.

 

It seems wrong to me to expect that if a TPG guarantees a coin's authenticity and grade, that guarantee should extend to whatever someone thinks the eye appeal is worth.

[gmarguli]

It appears that the infamous Peace dollar is going back to NGC. I really don't know why the current owner would send it to NGC instead of the selling dealer. If NGC buys this coin back for anywhere near the transaction price, I'll be buying up every AT coin out there and make a killing sending them back to NGC.

 

TRUTH

 

But you think every toned coin is AT.

[michael]

the subjective nature of both grading and identiication of NT v AT. No one should buy a coin based on someone elses opinion.

[michael]

It seems wrong to me to expect that if a TPG guarantees a coin's authenticity and grade, that guarantee should extend to whatever someone thinks the eye appeal is worth.

[michael]

To me this is where caveat emptour applies. You have knowledge and experience, yet you still buy something highly questionable and suspicious. Seems to me it's you that bears full responsibility. if you can't find a bigger fool, guess who the biggest fool is?

[gmarguli]

It seems wrong to me to expect that if a TPG guarantees a coin's authenticity and grade, that guarantee should extend to whatever someone thinks the eye appeal is worth.

 

But, do you think that they should be on the hook for $14,500 because the dealer thinks it is worth that much? What if he priced it at $145,000? At some point the grading services have to draw the line.

 

Also, the grading services have the ability to REPLACE the coin if they wish. They can replace this coin with a generic MS66* worth under $1,000. It's already been stated ATS that the premium paid for toning is not necessarily covered by the grading guarantee.

[kranky]

It seems wrong to me to expect that if a TPG guarantees a coin's authenticity and grade, that guarantee should extend to whatever someone thinks the eye appeal is worth.

 

But, do you think that they should be on the hook for $14,500 because the dealer thinks it is worth that much? What if he priced it at $145,000? At some point the grading services have to draw the line.

 

Also, the grading services have the ability to REPLACE the coin if they wish. They can replace this coin with a generic MS66* worth under $1,000. It's already been stated ATS that the premium paid for toning is not necessarily covered by the grading guarantee.

 

We are in agreement. I said it was wrong to expect a guarantee to cover an unlimited amount for eye appeal.

[macrocoin]

Bottom line, I trust no one other than myself with respect to all financial transactions. If I am going to lay down $14K for a coin you can be darn sure it will after thorough market research. I dont care if it comes in a NGC slab encased inside a bigger PCGS slab with a hand written letter from ANACS saying. "you done good!"....I only trust me with my money. That being said, because at the end of the day it was my decision alone to make the purchase, I hold myself fully responsible for the sale.

 

A person shouldnt spend what they arent comfortable parting with. I understand that in this case the seller potentially lied about the origins of the tone. If business has taught me anything its that the truth is rare, and lies dont surprise, sadly, I expect them. I pull the caveat empor card and say that karma will catch up with the seller.

[dragon]

<<< Also, the grading services have the ability to REPLACE the coin if they wish. They can replace this coin with a generic MS66* worth under $1,000. It's already been stated ATS that the premium paid for toning is not necessarily covered by the grading guarantee. >>>

 

 

gmarguli is correct. That $14000.00 was just an arbitrary price put on the coin by the current owner and not representative of fair market value in the eyes of a 3rd party grader by any stretch. I wonder what the price paid in the dealer to dealer transaction was. I also wonder if the guy who got it holdered was the same buyer on Ebay for the $55.00. I also wonder if that half baked story about the coin being stored in an envelope in any way influenced NGC....I sure hope not.

 

If I was the current owner, I would've taken this up with the seller and sought a full refund rather than sending it off to NGC,

 

It will also be interesting to see how NGC proceeds with this coin now that it has received all this publicity.

[rexcat]

The loser is the person who's holding the coin when the music stops playing. The music stopped playing while the coin was in the inventory of a dealer who has reaped the benefits of the toning craze. I can live with that result.

 

Couldn't have said it better or agree more.

[James_OldeTowne]

To paraphrase how it was told to me, someone from NGC explained to me one time that being slabbed doesn't mean the coin IS naturally toned, it means the coin LOOKS naturally toned.

 

From the standpoint of certification, I agree with this sentiment.

 

I don't think the actual source of the toning is really the issue.

 

James