Are Mint State Super High Grades Safer Than Proofs?

[braddick]

I've read with interest the Thread regarding PR70 PCGS debacles soon to be offered in a public auction. Why these coins simply we not returned to PCGS after they were holdered and turned sour for PCGS's Grade Guarantee is beyond me.

But, not the point of this Thread: Do you believe, if a Collector is so inclined, it is safer to collect the Super High Grades (say, MS68 and up) in Mint State instead of Proofs?

I've seen too many proofs 'turn' in the holder. They take on brownish haze or a whitish cloud tone that is unattractive, and as Greg pointed out, should place the coin into a bodybag let alone a high grade Service holder.

 

Do the Mint State coins also "go bad" with the same frequency? I've seen some haze on GEM slabbed Ikes and Kennedies, but overall, are they safer to collect (again, if a Collector is so positioned to collect Moderns-)?

What has been your experience?

[bigd5]

I'm no modern guy, by any means, but I would think that a proof coin would have more delicate surfaces that would be more readily affected by atmospheric or other types of changes. A complete guess though, to be honest.

 

I've always considered mint state coins "tougher"

[cladking]

Clads can be easily damaged by poor storage conditions. They likely aren't really more fragile than silver, but do not handle high moisture situations well. I have heard of many uncs becoming badly tarnished when stored under poor conditions. The proofs do seem to be more likely to "turn" than the uncs but I've rarely had problems with either. I once lost some '69 mint sets stored under moderately dry but fluctuating temperature conditions. I also lost some gem Ikes once.

[keithdagen]

Most of the MS coins that I have had graded have been sent in haze-free, then hazed over by the time PCGS returned them. So, in most cases, any haze had developed in the six to eight weeks it took to slab the coins.

 

I have had a Sac turn in a holder, but it had those early copper rinse spots and the toning ended up blending them in, so that wasn't bad. Overall, I think that you are safer with the MS coins though.

[gmarguli]

I've read with interest the Thread regarding PR70 PCGS debacles soon to be offered in a public auction. Why these coins simply we not returned to PCGS after they were holdered and turned sour for PCGS's Grade Guarantee is beyond me.

 

While I would like them to be returned to PCGS to be taken off the market, I would sell them at auction also. It's all about money. Take for example the 1963 1¢ in PCGS PR70DCAM. This is a coin that everyone who has viewed it has said that it is not even close to the grade. Most people pegged it at PR67DCAM with some saying the coin might only make CAM today. It's a pop 1 coin and it sells for $39,100. What do you think PCGS would have paid to take that coin off the market before the auction? My guess would have been around $1,500. Maybe $1,500 would have been a fair price to pay for it, but all it took was two with more money than brains to run the coin up to an obscene level.

 

PR70s are a rare coin thanks to the politics at PCGS. Some of the PR70s over the last few years are graded fairly, but most aren't. The "supply" is very small for many of the dates/denominations and they weren't rising for a LONG time. Why risk getting $1,500 for a bad coin from PCGS when you might have two go after it at auction and make a fortune?

 

Also, there is time, money, and risk involved with getting PCGS (or any service) to take a coin off the market. You have to resubmit it to them and pay a grading fee. We all saw what happened when Laura submitted an obviously bad coin. PCGS tried to BS its way out of paying. Then when they finally bowed to public pressure and made good, a fair amount of time had elapsed. She was out the money on this coin for quite some time. I'm not even sure if she got her grading money refunded. What if PCGS values your downgraded coin at 50% of what you do? They set the price they will pay. What if you purchased that Saint and paid $25,000 for it instead of the $15,000 Laura paid? Would they have given you the $25,000 or $20,000 or $15,000? Do you think that PCGS would have been even slower to pay? Want to take that risk? Consider you don't have a loud voice like her, then what? Even slower or not at all? Why risk the headaches? It's easier to sell the coin. All the risks are removed and you're left with all the upside potential.

 

I'm not saying that is the "right" thing to do, but most of us would do it that way - myself included - and I consider myself an ethical person who would never screw someone.

 

 

But, not the point of this Thread: Do you believe, if a Collector is so inclined, it is safer to collect the Super High Grades (say, MS68 and up) in Mint State instead of Proofs?

 

Do the Mint State coins also "go bad" with the same frequency? I've seen some haze on GEM slabbed Ikes and Kennedies, but overall, are they safer to collect (again, if a Collector is so positioned to collect Moderns-)?

 

The surfaces of a proof are without question easier to harm than a mint state coin. A couple of small hairlines on a PR70 might knock it down to a PR67. Those same hairlines on an MS70 might only knock it down to an MS68. You've got more to lose by something little on a proof.

 

Also, get a little haze on an MS coin and it is harder to notice. Same with a small spot. On a proof those problems scream off the surface. We are a little more forgiving on "problems" on MS coins than proofs since they are harder to see and on proofs we expect perfection since they were minted that way.

 

[Wihlborg]

braddick,

 

From my experience I would have to say that proofs are more likely to turn than a mint state coin. I have seen hundreds of mint and proof sets over the years and by far more of the proof sets had turned bad. I agree with bigd5 that they have more delicate surfaces that are more readily affected by atmospheric changes.

 

John

 

[TomB]

Good question. I don't have the time right now to read the other responses but will tell you that, in my experience, there is more reproducibility in grading MS coins than there is in grading PF coins. So, you are more likely to get an accurately and precisely graded coin in an MS holder than in a PF holder.

[Hoot]

I think that proofs of modern day (and perhaps pre-1950, but you see few of those above PF66) are highly subject to change, simply due to the fact that they are minted so perfectly. It's likely that many of the proofs of the first half of the 20th century were nearly perfect (or even PF70) when they were released, but the simple practices of "special handling" caused their slide to lower grades. We should expect the same from our "brand new" coins, even if they are placed in a slab that gives us the impression that they're impenetrable. Simple fact is that each coin is slabbed with some degree of impurity that will cause change over time. The impurity may be wholly invisible and may have also originated at the Mint (in fact, I'd say this is a good bet), but it's there.

 

As for "hedging", that isn't the point of collecting proofs vs. MS coins. MS coins will also go bad and slide down the scale from lofty grades of 68 and 67. And with modern techniques, many coins, e.g. modern commems, come in super grades straight to your door. For those that don't, or are in relatively small supply, like our common circulation coinage, "investment" in the highest grades currently available is nuts if you are trying to protect an investment. There are so many coins unsearched out there and in the hands of people simply hoarding them, that we have no idea how those populations will settle out. So, even though we know that there are a lot of great proofs out there (in terms of grade), I think there may also be quite a few MS coins. So buy what you are comfortable having lose value in a big hurry - either from a "natural" loss of grade (and thus value) or from an increasing supply in the (real or perceived) populations.

 

Bottom line is that I think we are deluded to think that our coins will remain the same in appearance, thus grade, over time. This is true for any modern MS or PF coin, the higher the grade, the more likely the fall.

 

Hoot

 

[braddick]

I appreciate the well thought-out responses and you've given me much to think about. I've got some graded Proof material and it would sicken me to see them haze up or spot over time. I do all I can to protect them but am also in a position where I want this hobby to return more joy and less grief.

 

On a related note: Greg- you mentioned how you would possibly sell those tainted "PR70's" yourself at an auction rather than return them to PCGS for their guarantee.

You know what? I don't believe you would. Oh, you might think about it, but when it comes to dropping that package off at the Post Office on its way to a major auction house, you wouldn't bring yourself to do it.

If I've learned anything about you, it is that you are about as honest as the day is long. No where in your DNA is a person who would have his name wrapped around garbage coins such as these spotted, damaged Kennedy proofs.

You would do the right thing, no matter how tempting it is to chase after the almightly dollar. You would do the right thing and have these horror coins removed from the market and placed into PR66CAM holders where they would eventually end up then on Teletrade and sell for the opening bid of $6. each.

-How far off am I in my assessment?

[DonHeath]

Someone will eventually adopt the simple practice many of the storm window manufacturers use, and slab coins in airtight holders with an inert gas. The result should be zero deterioration.

[cladking]

Clad is probably less susceptable to tarnish or deterioration than is silver or copper. Perhaps if we all just avoided any coins over VF...

[gmarguli]

On a related note: Greg- you mentioned how you would possibly sell those tainted "PR70's" yourself at an auction rather than return them to PCGS for their guarantee.

You know what? I don't believe you would. Oh, you might think about it, but when it comes to dropping that package off at the Post Office on its way to a major auction house, you wouldn't bring yourself to do it.

If I've learned anything about you, it is that you are about as honest as the day is long. No where in your DNA is a person who would have his name wrapped around garbage coins such as these spotted, damaged Kennedy proofs.

You would do the right thing, no matter how tempting it is to chase after the almightly dollar. You would do the right thing and have these horror coins removed from the market and placed into PR66CAM holders where they would eventually end up then on Teletrade and sell for the opening bid of $6. each.

-How far off am I in my assessment?

 

Honestly, I can't recall ever sending in a coin for grade guarantee. Usually because I don't buy junk coins so I'm not in the position to have these coins. I've sent a few to NGC for Appearance Review when the coins were ugly. Most of those were done as favors for other forum members. I also sent them one for a forum member that I though was overgraded (should have been bodybagged for damage). They disagreed, but we both understood their point even if we didn't necessarily agree with it 100%.

 

I guess it would depend on how easily a value could be placed on the coin in question and how bad the coin really was in my opinion. Is it an overgraded coin or it is a true abomination? On a coin like a very low pop PR70 where politics rules the grading then I would probably sell it. Depends on the pop and the ability to put a price on it. If I cannot place a value on a super low pop coin then it wouldn't be a sound decision to turn it in and get a low-ball offer. I don't want to ask for $1000 from the grading company and then see one sell for $5000 a few weeks later. I also probably wouldn't get $5000 if I asked for it. On a coin like an MS65 common Morgan I'd be much more likely to send it in. However, I'd probably just use it as trade to a dealer that knew it was junk and let him take care or it.

 

Dogs that should be one grade lower I'd have no problem selling on TT.

 

I'm kind of the opinion that if it is in a slab of at least a semi-reputable grading service then whatever the grading company says is OK. Of course I'd give a return privilege if the buyer didn't like it. Also, when I sell a coin, if anyone asks me for an honest opinion of the coin, I will give it. I've told people that they are low end in the past. I actually sold a top pop to someone about a year ago (NOT the 71-D Kennedy). The #1 collector contacted me about the coin and asked my opinion. I was honest and told him it was a low end coin that just made it and described some spots that didn't show up in the photo. He still made a solid offer, but was outbid for it.

 

I don't feel like working for the grading services - especially PCGS. I always felt that they went out of their way to be unhelpful - not just to me, but to most people including dealers - so why should I spend my time and effort taking their mistakes off the market. Let the PCGS dealers do that work for them. They are the ones that make the money. Look at Supercoin who has taken off several of their mistakes. Are they thankful to him? Nope. They have been jerking him around on the variety recognition for 9 months now and they never returned his samples.

 

I've also worried about costing the services money and how they would react. Don't want to [!@#%^&^] them off.

 

[braddick]

Ok, fair enough.

[Todd-migration]

MS coins in my opinion is a much better deal for modern coins in high grade. Yes the MS coin is not a fragile as the PF coin which is prone to spotting or hazing in some cases. I mean when you have a black on white contrast any minor thing stands out. With the introduction of airtight holders the toning and hazing due to the air can be stopped. There is also the shields to put those high grade proof or ms coins in. When the ms coin tones you can get some amazing colors that turn up; you can find great looking toned coin in pf however there are not as many finely toned pf coins. However the PF has eye-appeal that screams at you, but if you look at the numbers it is still a better deal to collect the modern MS coins because they are harder to find in high grade. The PF modern coin is constantly graded at a 69 Ucam and 70 Ucam's are not as rare as they used to be. If I were collecting modern years (72-Present) I would go with the MS coin Still hard to find in ms68 and above. This is just like the car industry. Cars changed in 1972 and in my opinion lost that classic look, appeal and rarity which seems to have taken place in coin market.

[DonHeath]

Todd,

 

Did I read correctly in a thread in the Marketplace that you are with R & I coin? I am a satisfied customer, and always enjoy your inventory. Glad to see you posting here. BTW - I agree that 72 is the perfect breaking point.

 

[Todd-migration]

Hey Don,

you know it, R&I Coins,Thanks for the good word and glad you are happy with your coins. My love and knowledge for coins continues to grow and I figure there is no better way to keep that up by getting on the forums. However 72 was a turning point in a lot of things and I sort of wish they kept it the same. I love proofs but with the modern proofs coming out 69 ucam/dcam all the time I am seriously thinking about ms moderns. What a shame.