A TAMPERED WITH NGC SLAB?

[TWODOGS-migration]

I bought this on eBay. I have never seen an NGC slab with a groove all the way around it. VERY precision job, seems to have been done with a hot instrument. Check out the burr on both sides of the groove, very noticeable to the touch. The front of the slab is all pooched out like it's been inflated. The label is not in the depression.

 

The slab says MS-65, but look at the scrape all along Liberty's raised arm. There's either rub along the entire front of her body, or it's been polished. The coin with all the rub and dings is no better than AU-50.

 

I have many NGC slabs, but not one this new. I would appreciate it if anyone has seen anything like this, that they would let me know.

 

[gmarguli]

I've gotten NGC slabs with that groove around the seam DIRECTLY FROM NGC. You can stick your fingernail in it. The slab is still sealed.

 

The puffed insert is normal. It happens on a lot of their slabs. I believe it has to do with how the insert, which is a little too big, is placed in the slot for it. There has been talk about it on these forums before. A search could probably come up with it.

 

As for the coin. The "rub" is a weak strike known on these coins. The marks are a little on the high side, but nothing awful. The coin looks slightly below average for an MS65, but nothing that is WAY overgraded. Typical TeleTrash & eBay quality. You get what you pay for.

[TWODOGS-migration]

Thanks Greg. I appreciate the response. I haven't had anything slabbed for 2 years by NGC, so figured I'd ask.

[michael]

i agree with greg

 

from the photo i see and sight seen could be different but i doubt it

 

but for me you got a real untampered with ngc slab!!

 

also if you look on the side of this ngc holder you should see like a rough seal mark where the coin was sealed together you can feel it and it is not clear like the rest of the side

 

this is the mark of a properly sealed and genuine holder

well one of the tell tail signs

 

also with this coin i think it is not worth the effort as someone would do this with a coin worth substancially more than this coin

 

sincerely michael

[TomB]

I have to echo about what has already been written about the slab and insert. Also, the coin looks MS from the images, AU50 seems awfully harsh.

[BodyBag]

... Typical TeleTrash & eBay quality. You get what you pay for.

 

Greg, I enjoy reading your posts, and I have a developed a lot of respect for you. We have even done business together recently. I say these things first to point out that I mean no disrespect. We are all entitled to our opinions... However, to say a MS65 walker like the one posted here is "TeleTrash & eBay quality" is sort of a smack in the face to us common ilk that strive to build nice collections on a budget. The coin in question is a common date, and as such is not "important", but it seems to be a nice coin and it Trends at a fair price. I'd be happy to add it to my collection IF the price was right. I do not consider it trash or "eBay quality" whatever that means. I'd pay low-end 64 money for it today, assuming the seller had a return policy, because it looks like it might be a nice linear upgrade to the current NGC MS63 in my set. Yes, MS63. They do go that low.

[msmhappy]

i think your ok with your purchase. but please, please, please be careful on ebay there are many there who sell junk when they claim its premium!!

 

oh! and i do have a few slabs with simalar groves in them, as well as the label not in its depression.

 

as far as the pooching??? im not sure!

 

mike

 

dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[msmhappy]

oh by the way, nice coin!!!!

 

mike

 

dont forget! collect proof sets!!!!!!!!

[truthteller]

I found this post on the PCGS website also. Funny thing, a few of the PCGS replies were ready to roast the seller of this coin, asking for the ebay name to avoid them. Half of the responses were poor information, 1/4 were unknowledgeable and the other 1/4 gave good responses. Here, on the NGC forum, 100% of the responses were accurate. Kinda interesting. Nice coin by the way.

 

TRUTH

[TWODOGS-migration]

I changed the title of the post on the PCGS Forum. The thing that got me going is that I have never seen an NGC slab with the groove all the way around it. BUT, what set off alarm bells is the condition of the coin. That's what made me wonder. I wish you could all see it in person. I have been happy with all but one of my coins in NGC slabs up until this one. Now it's two. It looks waaaay better in the pictures than it does in person. I can understand weak strikes and roll rub and so forth, but for there to be even polishing of the entire front and leg of Liberty's body is certainly a new one on me. Except, of course, on circulated coins.

[gmarguli]

... Typical TeleTrash & eBay quality. You get what you pay for.

 

Greg, I enjoy reading your posts, and I have a developed a lot of respect for you. We have even done business together recently. I say these things first to point out that I mean no disrespect. We are all entitled to our opinions... However, to say a MS65 walker like the one posted here is "TeleTrash & eBay quality" is sort of a smack in the face to us common ilk that strive to build nice collections on a budget. The coin in question is a common date, and as such is not "important", but it seems to be a nice coin and it Trends at a fair price. I'd be happy to add it to my collection IF the price was right. I do not consider it trash or "eBay quality" whatever that means. I'd pay low-end 64 money for it today, assuming the seller had a return policy, because it looks like it might be a nice linear upgrade to the current NGC MS63 in my set. Yes, MS63. They do go that low.

 

It wasn't a slap at the budget of the collector. We're all on budgets. Seeing myself get outbid on EVERY Heritage lot I was interested in tonight, I can sure feel the constraints of a budget.

 

In this hobby, just like in life, you get what you pay for. eBay is pretty much a dumping ground for generic coins that are not of PQ or high quality. Not many people will sell coins on eBay that are superb for the grade. Stuff like that gets sold in person or to people you have dealt with in the past. That's the stuff you get a premium for. There are exceptions, but not many. TeleTrash is basically the dumping ground for coins that you'd be embarrassed to put on eBay under your regular ID. Sure the nice coin will come up for sale there every now and again.

 

It has nothing to do with the collectors that shop these places. The coins that sell at these places are usually low end for the grade. It's not a put down on the collectors that shop these places. Not everyone can afford to buy from dealers that deal in PQ coins OR not everyone has the luxury of being able to see the inventory of many dealers or attend many shows.

 

I used to buy a lot off TT. Then I wised up to the quality, attended more shows, dealt with more dealers, and admittedly, my collecting budget increased.

 

Also, on the PCG$ site, TWODOGS stated that the selled had it described as "Low end of the grade.".

 

[Dog97]

Like TTeller I too followed this post from another board. I don't know much about Walkers so I just commented on the slab.

C&P:

TWODOGS I don't believe your slab to be tampered with. A non perfect union seems to be a common occurance in the newer slabs with the divider between the coin & label as cpmpared to the older slabs which almost always made a perfect union.

I have a slab with a gap almost as wide as yours and I'm sure it's not tampered with as I know the history of it.

You guys pull out your NGC boxes and look and you'll see what I mean.

end C&P

The coin I spoke of was a Toned Binion. I guess it went straight from NGC to TeleTrade then to Mike Billy (mbcoins)who sold it to me on eBay. All the pictures matched the coin. Must be a problem with recent slab shells. I got a laugh from what gmarguli said because the coin got more expensive everytime it changed auction houses but sure didn't get any better looking:

It's in my Reg Set

 

[jeh46544]

I havn't read all of the responses, so someone may have already said this. But, you should ask this in the "Ask NGC" forum. They should know better than any of us.

[MikeKing]

I recently purchased a PF Cameo Lincoln in an NGC holder that is puckered out like what you describe. There is also something vague going on at the bottom of the holder. Since the coin is copper, I'm not going to take any chances and am going to have it reholdered. Perhaps you could do that, and ask NGC to examine the holder for tampering.

 

We always take a chance buying a coin by just looking at it's picture. This is fine when there's a return policy, however, in Heritage Signature auctions, Bowers and most Ebays, you can't do this. I bought a beautiful silver commemorative from Bowers and Merena, and when I recieved it, there was a thin scratch along Washinton's face that was not at all visible in the photograph. In fact, if I held the coin in a certain position, I couldn't even see it in person. Because of this, I was pretty dissapointed, but I realize also, that it was not intentional by Bowers because if photographed flat, it wouldn't show the scratch (although, they should have mentioned it). On another occasion, I purchased a Morgan Dollar from Heritage. When I recieved it, there was a scratch I had not noticed from the picture. My fault though. Closer inspection and retrospective analysis revealed it. It was semi-obscured by their lighting. They too didn't mention this mark in their description.

 

I think the only solutions to this kind of risk is to view the coin personally, or contact the auctioneer and ask them to look at the coin for you, before placing your bid. I've done this with Heritage, and they expressed willingness to do that (of course, they're not going to examine 20 coins for you, but if it's one or two, that is not unreasonable to ask).

 

I know how dissapointing it can be when you finally get the coin you wanted, in hand, and its less than what you had hoped for. I consider it a lesson, and also part of the risk we take buying sight 'unseen'. I will eventually sell any coin in my possession that isn't what I ultimately want. Perhaps you can, when the timing or situation is right, unload the coin. There is always someone who will be perfectly happy with something that doesn't meet our own private expectations.

 

[BodyBag]

...eBay is pretty much a dumping ground for generic coins...

 

... but the little dawg collector/hobyists like myself DO sell nice-for-the-grade coins on eBay because; as we upgrade, eBay is the only place we can get close to a decent price. And by decent, I mean 1/2 to 2/3 retail when I'm lucky.

 

Sorry for the

[Wihlborg]

TWODOGS,

 

All of the newer NGC holders have the same grove around the edge and I have seen many with labels that were sticking up from the recess, so from the photo I don't believe the holder had been tampered with.

 

As for the coin, it is very common for Walkers to be weakly struck from a little above the hand going down the leg and again from the photo I believe this is what it is and not rub. IMO I would grade this coin a high end MS-64 to low end MS-65 due to the scratch under the arm. I cannot judge the luster from the photo, but if it is nice this is what could have pushed this coin into an MS-65 holder.

 

As for eBay, while it is true that a lot of junk is dumped there, it is by no means true that all the coins on eBay are junk. There are some very nice coins put up on eBay. You just need to find the right people to deal with, know how to grade, and make sure there is a return policy.

 

John

 

[coinman1794]

"I haven't had anything slabbed for 2 years by NGC, so figured I'd ask."

 

That would explain it because NGC started using this new holder since that time.

[BankNote1]

The holder IMO, hasn't been tampered with! All my newer NGC holders look like that. If someone had used something hot to open the holder, I doubt that he could have got the holder back together, in any decent condition!

If I didn't like the coin, I would see if the seller would give a refund. You shouldn't keep a coin you don't like regardless of grade or holder!!

[TWODOGS-migration]

I sure appreciate everyone's replies. That's why I posted the question over here as well as the PCGS board.

 

All of you people have been very helpful, even Greg.

 

I have Walkers in slabs from 63 to 65 and I will say that this is the dog of the bunch.

 

I might have to send the one pictured here in for slabbing.

 

 

[msmhappy]

DO IT!!!!!!!!!!

 

buy the way, thats a very nice coin!!

 

mike

 

dont forget!! collect proof sets!! they were made to collect!!

[clw54]

It would be interesting to wait a couple of weeks and post this across the street in a Please-grade-this-coin thread.