Need advice re the possible names given the prototype SMS sets.

[DonHeath]

Although I'm sure there are many tongue-in-cheek answers to this question, the reason for my question is to form a proper query for the Archivist at the National Archives. Below are my initial email inquiry, and the response.

 

Inquiry -

 

I would like information from the Philadelphia mint records concerning the number of 1964 dated prototype special mint sets produced 1964 to present. Please tell me how to obtain this information.

 

Response -

 

April 29, 2003 April 29, 2003

 

Dear Mr. Heath:

 

This is in response to your April 24, 2003, electronic mail regarding the above Subject.

 

There may be records in Record Group 104, Records of the U. S. Mint, pertaining to the sets in headquarters records here in College Park, but I need more information, such as the name of the set, to examine our records for a pertinent series. More likely, production records will be housed in our Philadelphia facility. You can find contact information for that facility at our website, www.archives.gov.

 

Sincerely,

 

Wayne T. De Cesar

Archivist, Civilian Records

Textual Archives Services Division

 

Since Mr.De Cesar was nice enough to respond, I was hoping some of you would have thoughts concerning how the sets were cataloged by the Mint. I have also asked for all records of design work funded for the 1964-1966 period. Any helpful ideas would be appreciated?

[Hoot]

Don - Might these be records that were included with those that were destroyed wholesale by ... damn, I can't remember the administration. Anyway, I know that one of the recent administrations ordered many of the records at the Mint destroyed as part of the paperwork reduction act and many unique records were lost. Hopefully someone knows this history better than I.

 

Hoot

[jtryka]

could these have been referred to as "specimen sets"? I have heard the term before in reference to special sets for dignitaries and such.

[GDJMSP]

Don -

 

Your best bet to obtain this type of information is to contact the Mint directly under the FOIA. You can do so here - FOIA

 

Your second best option - should you happen to be in D.C. is to visit NARA yourself. Trying to obtain this type of info through them without the exact terminology used by the Mint at the time will likely prove to be a very frustrating experience. But should you wish to pursue this method - then try using pattern or specimen in regard to the '64 sets.

 

And as Hoot said - the odds are high that you will find out ( or be told ) that such records no longer exist.

[Leothelion]

Hi Don

The 1964 Satin proof listed in the ANACS Pop report, it has been said to be one of those specialty strucked coins.

 

Leo

[chrisfuccione]

I remember there was a discusion on the Mint destroying there records in NBS's E-SYLUM a few years ago so I did some research and here it is.(Just a warning this is going to be a long post)

 

****************May 20,2001********************

 

HACKEL'S MINT RECORD DESTRUCTION

 

In response to our discussion of library deaccession (and

sometime destruction) of runs of periodicals, Henry Bergos

writes: "Let's not forget what Hackel did!!! Who said the

Vandals died out ..? She destroyed the government Mint

records!!! We, the numismatic community, went berserk -

there were a few groups who wanted to take them if the

government couldn't store them, but NO !!!!!! -

She ordered them destroyed -- and so they were."

 

[Henry is referring to Mint Director Stella Hackel

(November 1977 - April 1988), who ordered the

destruction of a large group of U.S. Mint records.

Can anyone give us more information on what was

destroyed, or the circumstances of the action? - Editor

 

 

***************May 27,2001********************

 

HACKEL'S MINT RECORD DESTRUCTION

 

In response to the question about Mint Director Stella Hackel's

destruction of early U.S. Mint records, R. W. Julian writes:

"The facts of the matter are as follows:

 

1) In 1984 I was planning a trip to Washington to do research

in the Archives but thought a visit to the GSA record center in

Philadelphia might be of value. I asked Eleonora Hayden, then

Mint Historian, to obtain for me the necessary written

permission from the Bureau.

 

2) There was some delay in obtaining permission (for technical

reasons) but while I was in Washington permission was

received.

 

3) I then went up to Philadelphia where I planned to read

Philadelphia Mint letters and ledgers for various years through

about 1935.

 

4) When I arrived at the Records Center I was informed that

Stella Hackel had destroyed the records in 1978 and I was

shown a thick sheaf of destruct orders that had been kept on

file. Hackel used one of her office staff to sign off on the

destruction and then went to an Archives employee to get

the necessary authorization from that quarter. No effort was

made by Hackel to consult with Miss Hayden or the people

in the Archives who actually dealt with such records. It was

done in secret and those who should have been informed

were deliberately kept in the dark.

 

5) I then returned to Washington on other matters. I informed

Miss Hayden of the destruction; it was all news to her. I

found out later that Donna Pope had reversed the policy but

Hackel seems to have destroyed most of the working mint

records from 1900 through at least 1960 and perhaps as late

as 1970. I also informed the proper people in the Archives,

who were equally in the dark; they had been expecting this

material to be sent down in due course.

 

6) About two years ago a friend asked Hackel why she had

destroyed the records. She claimed that she could not

remember the matter at all.

 

7) Eva Adams also destroyed records but not to as great an

extent. One record that she trashed, for example, was a die

record book which listed every die made from 1844 to 1925.

Her assistant, speaking for her, said that collectors had no

legitimate interest in such matters and that I must be a front

for a counterfeiting gang. I filed an Freedom of Information

Act request but Adams replied, a year later, that it was an

internal memo and thus off-limits.

 

When Mary Brooks became director she had, at my request,

a search made for this book but it could not be found; she did

find many other records of value which were made available to

me."

 

 

JUNKPILE MINT CORRESPONDENCE

 

On a related note, Julian Liedman sends this tantalizing tidbit:

"I have a colleague that purchased from a junk dealer a number

of volumes of copies of mint correspondence. I do not know

why he is keeping them. Several people have tried to purchase

them to give to one of the libraries. He is probably trying to get

a large amount of money for them and has not been offered

enough."

 

 

*******************6/03/2001******************

 

MINT RECORDS SAVED FROM DESTRUCTION

 

Andrew W. Pollock III writes: "Pursuant to information on

the destruction of mint records mentioned in the last two

issues of E-Sylum is the following:

 

Perhaps the most important article to be published in Coin

World in the last 20 years was titled: "Dealer retrieves 700

volumes of Treasury records," by William T. Gibbs. The

article appeared in the May 18, 1983 issue, and reports on

the purchase of important historical documents by coin

dealers from a scrap paper dealer who had been contracted

by the Treasury Department to recycle the records.

 

I have not seen any information on this subject in many years,

except for that which just appeared in your e-journal."

 

Michael Schmidt, commenting on the Coin World article,

adds: "To the best of my recollection the story went that the

Mint sent a large number of old records and correspondence

files to the landfill. At the landfill they were found and diverted

to a paper recycler. The recycler recognized the documents

as being valuable and potentially having historical significance.

(It was probably the correspondence files that tipped him off,

letters signed by people such as George Washington, John

Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.) The paper recycler took the

records to a coin dealer who bought them.

 

When the dealer traced the records back to their source, the

government tried to force the dealer to give the records back.

It was determined though that he held good title to the records

since the governments claim was relinquished when they sent

the records to the landfill for disposal. The final outcome was

the dealer got to keep the records and the government issued

new directives that all records were to be shredded before

being sent to the landfill."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chrisfuccione]

For those of you who don't recive it yet the E-sylum is the weekly e-newsletter of the Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS). It is free to all members and non-members of the NBS. I find it well done and highly informative. There is a link on their home page to subscribe to it. CHRIS

 

link

[DonHeath]

Thank you all. That's very helpful.

[cladking]

The only thing I can remember may not be very helpful. When Superior? listed these in 1993? they referred to them as "experimental". This may, of course, have no bearing on mint terminology.

[DWLange]

I doubt you'll find anything about these coins in the National Archives. Any correspondence regarding the experimental finish 1964-dated issues would have been in the form of internal memos, just the sort of material discarded by Director Hackel-Sims.

[Hoot]

Chris - Thank you for that good bit of detective work!!! Excellent!!!

 

Hoot

[DonHeath]

Thanks guys. I have requested the complete journals for 1964 and 1965. Perhaps I'll get lucky. I'll repost the results.

 

 

[MikeKing]

I don't know how successful getting accurate records will be.

I think the 1964 SMS Lincoln cent on auction at Heritage demonstrates this.

 

 

web page

[Leothelion]

Mike

Thanks for the picture.

 

Leo

[kenwin1]

great read!