Is grey sheet best?

[Carterofmars]

I'm trying to decide if I should subscribe to the Grey Sheet, or if I should just keep checking prices realized at completed auction to determine present value...

 

Any thoughts?

[truthteller]

The grey sheet is good for buying and selling "stuff" for under $500. Esoteric items with low populations or coins with pretty color, the Heritage auction website is best.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[TomB]

I like The Greysheet and subscribe at the monthly level in order to get the sheet delivered only once a month but still containing a weekly, monthly and quarterly issue. It is inexpensive, in my opinion, to have this done since it runs about $60 per year. I don't know if the electronic version is a different price.

 

This is a nice reference piece to have since it seems most folks base at least some of their buy or sell prices on the data contained inside each issue. Also, it's nice to have the information all in one place if you are going to a show.

[DaveG]

It really depends on you and what kind of coins you collect.

 

The Grey Sheet is the wholesale guide that almost all the dealers use. It's especially useful for coins that are particularly active, like MS-63 Morgans, for example. The Grey Sheet prices some coins weekly, some coins monthly and some coins quarterly.

 

It doesn't have prices for "mid-grades" (XF-45, AU-53, MS-62, etc.), nor does it have prices for Roosevelt dimes, Washington quarters past 1949 or any ultra-high grade moderns.

 

In addition, you'll probably want to refer to recent auction prices for many four and five-figure coins, such as Bust dollars or old-tenor gold, as the specialists in these coins have complained frequently over the past couple of years that the Grey Sheet is significantly "behind the market" for many of these types of coins.

 

Plus, you need to know how the market is for the coins you collect: some coins can be bought at or below "sheet" (Grey Sheet Bid) and some coins can't.

 

It's a good price guide - everyone uses it, but you have to know how to use it.

[Carterofmars]

Right now everything I'm buying is slabbed and Gem quality, unless it's a very pricy piece then I'm looking at AU grade.

 

I have a sample Grey sheet and Blue sheet (Slabbed values). It looks to be an excellent tool.

 

Question:

 

I've been told that the general rule of thumb, when dealing with dealers, is that you can expect to pay 15 to 20% above grey sheet when purchasing and get 15 to 20% below when selling. Is this your experiences?

[Carterofmars]

And TomB...

 

Is that eagle on fire !

[DaveG]

Remember: the Grey Sheet is for sight-seen transactions and the Blue Sheet is for sight-unseen transactions.

 

There are many, many exceptions to the "general rule".

 

There are many types of dealers out there: dealers with storefronts have higher costs than dealers who just do shows, so, all other things being equal, you'd probably expect to pay less for a coin at a show than for the same coin at a shop. Also, some dealers work on a smaller profit margin than others (but they don't always have the nicest coins). Some dealers have nicer coins, but they charge more because either they had to pay up for the coins and/or they have slower inventory turnover, so they have to have a higher profit margin.

 

Also, there are three main types of coins out there: low-end, "just right" and high-end (not to mention toned coins). You wouldn't expect to buy a "high end for the grade" coin at a "low end for the grade" price. (Just as you wouldn't be willing to sell a "high end for the grade" coin for a "low end for the grade" price.)

 

 

By the way (and I don't mean to be rude), how do you know that what you're buying is "gem" quality?

 

If your response is "Because it says MS-65 on the slab", then how do you know that the coin you're about to buy hasn't already been shown to ten highly experienced dealers or collectors, expert graders all, each of whom declined to buy the coin because they didn't like it?

[Carterofmars]

If your response is "Because it says MS-65 on the slab", then how do you know that the coin you're about to buy hasn't already been shown to ten highly experienced dealers or collectors, expert graders all, each of whom declined to buy the coin because they didn't like it?

 

It sounds like your talking about Eye Appeal. When I purchase coins I always purchase slabbed material. Then I sit back and try to evaluate it's "Eye Appeal". If it looks nice I buy it. If it's slabbed and looks ugly I pass.

[TomB]

The eagle you are refering to is on one of my favorite toned coins, a 1952-S Washington quarter, and it really is attractive in-hand.

 

DaveG has given you excellent advice thus far regarding the market. I have never been a fan of The Blusheet since this is for sight unseen coinage and the prices reflect the cautious nature of the bids for such material since it is likely to be either low-end or over-graded.

 

Also, DaveG isn't simply writing about eye appeal in his response to you; he is also writing about coins that have, to put it politely, issues. There are slabbed coins with apparently terrific eye appeal due to previous cleaning methods, coins that are wildly over-graded because of superior eye appeal, coins in gem holders that are waiting to "turn" and many other problems. Experience, and a helpful teacher, is the way to recognize these pitfalls.

 

As for a buy/sell percentage of The Greysheet, that is a tough call. Every time I take a table at a show I sell nice coins that I think can be reasonably replaced at or around Greysheet. Alternatively, I sell superb coins or pieces that cannot be easily replaced well above Greysheet. However, not everyone works on this paradigm.

[Carterofmars]

Also, DaveG isn't simply writing about eye appeal in his response to you; he is also writing about coins that have, to put it politely, issues. There are slabbed coins with apparently terrific eye appeal due to previous cleaning methods, coins that are wildly over-graded because of superior eye appeal, coins in gem holders that are waiting to "turn" and many other problems.

 

Dave has given excellent advice and it's greatly appreciated. I guess you guys really make some good points.

 

Regarding your comments:

 

There are slabbed coins with apparently terrific eye appeal due to previous cleaning methods: The fact that they are cleaned must be stated on the Holder, correct?

 

coins that are wildly over-graded because of superior eye appeal: It's my understanding that the reputable grading firms such as PCGS, NGC, and ANACS won't overgrade for the most part.

 

coins in gem holders that are waiting to "turn" and many other problems: I have no idea how to determine if a slabbed coin will turn. I guess if there is corrosion then you may expect that to continue in the holder.

 

Any thoughts guys.

[DaveG]

Actually, Tom is speaking of coins that are in PCGS and NGC slabs.

 

There are folks out there who make a living "processing" coins (they're called "coin doctors") that they then try to get into PCGS and NGC slabs. If they're successful, they make a lot of money and unknowing collectors end up buying a timebomb.

 

Neither PCGS nor NGC will slab "abrasively cleaned" coins (ANACS will net grade them), but both PCGS and NGC are "flexible" with older (e.g., Bust and Seated) US coins, as so many of them have been cleaned in the past. Both PCGS and NGC will slab "dipped" coins - when you see a slabbed Seated dollar in VG that is bright white, you know it has been dipped! PCGS and NGC may downgrade these coins, but they will slab them. And, as you know, neither PCGS nor NGC qualify the grade on their slabs (except for NCS, of course).

 

The perceived practice of the grading services giving a coin an extra point or two for superior toning is currently the subject of controversy within the "toned coin collecting community".

 

Neither you, nor I, nor sometimes even expert dealers, can always tell if a coin has been chemically altered. There was a case a few years ago of a dealer who bought a high grade Saint (double eagle) that developed a severe case of "crud" within a month or so of purchase. As I recall, the grading service bought the coin back.

[jom]

There are slabbed coins with apparently terrific eye appeal due to previous cleaning methods: The fact that they are cleaned must be stated on the Holder, correct?

 

Uh...no. ANACS has their "net grade" thing but if the coin has been cleaned then, depending on who you talk to, the coin should either be not graded or it's considered "market acceptable".

 

coins that are wildly over-graded because of superior eye appeal: It's my understanding that the reputable grading firms such as PCGS, NGC, and ANACS won't overgrade for the most part.

 

Uh...no. They all overgrade and undergrade. The graders are human, have different opinions and make mistakes. What a shock, eh?

 

coins in gem holders that are waiting to "turn" and many other problems: I have no idea how to determine if a slabbed coin will turn. I guess if there is corrosion then you may expect that to continue in the holder.

 

Turn meaning "change". If a coin has been doctored for color the tone has a good chance of changing, usually in bad way. However, some AT'd coins do NOT change and hence are eventually considered "market acceptable" to some. There are, IMO, many AT'd coins in reputable slabs. However, then you get into discussions on what is considered "AT"...argh.

 

The bottom line is that YOU are going to have to look at as many coins as possible to learn to grade and, more importantly, PRICE the coins you are considering buying. YOU are the one that is responsible and pretending that the slab will keep us from harm is ultimately a mistake....we've all made these mistakes and probably continue to do so....unfortunately. So get out there and start looking! It's not only fun it's FREE!

 

 

jom

[TomB]

DaveG, jom and I are all writing about the same thing and that issue is the fact that just because a coin is certified by NGC, PCGS or another respected TPG does not mean that it is accurately grade, does not mean that it is original and does not mean that it is problem-free. This is a concept that takes many people who have entered the hobby after the onset of TPGs a while to embrace and understand.

 

The final line of defense to your collection and wallet is within your knowledge base and this should be used, updated and added to extensively.

 

The double eagle that DaveG is writing about was bought by Legend Numismatics (Laura Sperber), one of the most powerful coin dealers around, and it was found to have putty on it in order to "improve" its appearance. The coin was graded MS66 by PCGS before the putty made its presence known and PCGS originally declined to compensate Legend for their oversight. Eventually, most likely due to Legend's position in the numismatic community and the noise generated by the event, PCGS bought the coin.

 

Similarly, another well-respected dealer (Mark Feld) bought a PCGS graded 1945 Mercury dime that had been graded MS65FB. The 1945 Merc is extraordinarily common but with the FB designation it is downright rare. The difference in price is something like $20 for an MS65 and $5,000 for an MS65FB. Unfortunately for Mark Feld, the seller shipped the coin to him and would not take a return when it was noticed that the coin had no bands. The holder was wrong. The coin was sent to PCGS, which broke the coin out of the old holder and put it into the correct MS65 holder but PCGS did not compensate Mark Feld. They claimed the occurrence was a "mechanical error" and was not covered by any guarantee.

 

There is also the case of the PCGS PF70 1963 Lincoln cent that had likely been dipped and improperly rinsed prior to submission. The coin turned in the holder and later sold for approximately $32,000 to a Registry Set participant who likely wanted it for the Registry points it contained. The processing of the coin was apparent and PCGS eventually bought the coin back, if I remember correctly.

 

Then there are commonly acknowledged artificially toned coins that populate TPG holders. These include the Appalachian Hoard of war nickels slabbed by NGC, the Peacock Hoard of Ike dollars slabbed by PCGS and the wildly toned violet and blue proof Jefferson nickels slabbed by PCGS. The coins are likely all fake with respect to toning yet the services were fooled, at least for a time before they stopped certifying them, and now trade on the marketplace for astronomical prices driven by those who either do not know they are being duped or by those who simply do not care about the origin of the toning.

 

Lastly, if you are not tired of reading examples, are the cases of the micro-O mintmarked Morgan dollars. These were accepted in the numismatic community for decades as being legitimate and were slabbed with the micro-O designation. Ultimately, I believe a grader at PCGS noticed that the same reverse die was used for these micro-O coins of different dates and now they are accepted as counterfeits. PCGS, and likley NGC if they also certified these, are offering to compensate the owners of these coins.

[jom]

Nice post, Tom!

 

jom

[gmarguli]

The double eagle that DaveG is writing about was bought by Legend Numismatics (Laura Sperber), one of the most powerful coin dealers around, and it was found to have putty on it in order to "improve" its appearance. The coin was graded MS66 by PCGS before the putty made its presence known and PCGS originally declined to compensate Legend for their oversight. Eventually, most likely due to Legend's position in the numismatic community and the noise generated by the event, PCGS bought the coin.

 

I believe that at first PCGS outright denied that there was anything wrong with the coin. It's been a few years so my memory might be off, but I believe that was the case.

 

 

 

Lastly, if you are not tired of reading examples, are the cases of the micro-O mintmarked Morgan dollars. These were accepted in the numismatic community for decades as being legitimate and were slabbed with the micro-O designation. Ultimately, I believe a grader at PCGS noticed that the same reverse die was used for these micro-O coins of different dates and now they are accepted as counterfeits. PCGS, and likley NGC if they also certified these, are offering to compensate the owners of these coins.

 

NGC stopped certifying these well before PCGS and there was a link to a David Lange article where he mentions that they were likely counterfeit. The PCGS announcement came long after the NGC article. No idea when ANACS & ICG stopped certifying them.

[EZ_E]

Nice post, Tom!

 

jom

 

Fascinating stories!

[Beijim]

Tom, thanks for the as-usual fascinating and educational set of object lessons. Posts like these increase the odds that readers will adopt an eyes-wide-open approach whenever considering purchases. Much appreciated.

 

Beijim

[James_OldeTowne]

The greysheet, despite its many flaws, is almost a necessity. If nothing else, it gives you a relative spread to base your purchases on.

 

The Blue Sheet is about the most worthless piece of paper out there. Avoid it like the plague. And anyone who tries to buy YOUR coins for Blue Sheet is NOT your friend, and you shouldn't do business with them - PERIOD.

 

"Blue Sheet" is for sight-unseen, and anyone who "collects" coins sight-unseen is a fool!

 

James

[SilverGigolo]

Yes, reputable grading firms like ICG, NGC, ANACS, don't overgrade for the most part, but we have all seen a coin that most of us think was graded incorrectly. The subjectivity can be problematic but the individual grader could be at the end of a long and eye strained, back pounding, headache filled day and miss a beat.

 

The greysheet also has front page articles and guest columns from specialists you will find interesting and worth the cost alone.