A perfect example of modern coin hype with FS, FT, FH, etc designation.

[truthteller]

Well, I was reading this thread on the PCGS forums about a 1960D MS64FS PCGS64 5C. The original buyer paid $32K, and the coin just sold at auction for $11K. It's a pop 1 coin, none higher.This coin is a perfect example of why high grade moderns with mintages in the zillions are not a good long term investment. I truly believe the premiums for designations of FS, FT, FBL are not worth it on modern coinage, and possibly not on FH standing lib quarters either, where multiples of value of non FH values can be realized.

 

Will PCGS eventually disavow this coin?

 

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=454047

 

 

TRUTH

[michael]

oh my

 

an interesting observation

 

and you always have great coin related threads on here truth!!

 

kudos to you

[IGWT]

Wow. A $21,000 haircut; about 2/3 the amount paid. It's hard to believe that the previous owner paid $32,000 for the coin based principally upon the FS designation. The homage paid to TPGs suggests that they've become Third Party Gods.

 

Well, so long as it was disposable income . . .

[chinook]

OUCH!!!!

[cladking]

As long as you're looking across the street and seeking hype you may as well check out this thread; http://forums.collectors.com/messageview...p;keyword1=hype

 

Many of the coins bringing high prices traded for about face value only a few years ago. There are many coins that people have lost money on. Relatively few are moderns.

[truthteller]

"Many of the coins bringing high prices traded for about face value only a few years ago."

 

 

I agree. However, once those coins are cracked out, they are only worth face value again. So, the actual modern coin is worthless, but the holder has all the value. In my opinion, that is not coin collecting, but holder collecting. The only way I will ever view modern collecting as serious is when the collector will, without hesitation, crack out a high grade modern and have no worries. I have yet to see this, however, for classics, it happens all the time.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[John Martinez]

I've only been on this board a few months. I thought is board was about collecting. What does it matter what one collects?

 

What got me interested in coins is my aunts gave me a Lincoln penny album as a kid that I still have. I've been away from the hobby for some time and have re-gained interest.

 

I started buying a roll of BU Silver Eagles in 1999 and have done so every year. The reason is because first, I thought it would be a good place to re-start, and what a legacy to hand to grand kids when I'm gone.

 

I also started checking pocket change to continue the Lincoln collection (in both directions - older and newer), as well as finding some interesting coins.

 

Since I have two rolls of Liberty Nickels and Barber Quarters, perhaps I may focus my re-acquired love for this hobby there. If I do, I will acquire knowledge on these coins so I don't get ripped off and maybe I can help another collector some day.

 

I don't know of anyone, personally, who can afford to collect coins at $10,000 a pop. At $10,000 a pop, that's not collecting, that's investing, and investments go up --- AND investments go down. I did not start my BU Rolls of Silver Eagles for an investiment. I started it as part of my history to be passed down.

 

We should be encouraging each other, not knocking each other for what we decide to collect. Who should determine whether or I'm "serious" or not? Who should care if I give a few hours a week or every waking hour to this hobby? Who should care if I want to continue my "modern" coin collection from a kid?

We all enjoy the same hobby...coin collecting. Hello---THEY STILL MAKE COINS.

THEY STILL MAKE HOLDERS TO C-O-L-L-E-C-T THEM IN.

 

In closing, a quote from a book recomended here "Coin Collecting A Beginners Guide to the World of Coins" -- "It matters little what one chooses for a hobby. What does matter is that it is enjoyable and rewarding to the individual".... enuf said.

[TerrapinWill]

If I may add my opinion to the heap....

 

I think ther are very few "true collectors". My definition of "true collector" is someone who collects coins for the enjoyment of it. Someone who fills albums with raw coins, buys some slabbed coins, but in the end is not worried anout the future value of the coins they buy.

 

I'm not ridiculing what others colelct or do with their money, just saying that if you are worried about future value, then it's not a hobby. JMHO

[cladking]

"Many of the coins bringing high prices traded for about face value only a few years ago."

 

 

I agree. However, once those coins are cracked out, they are only worth face value again. So, the actual modern coin is worthless, but the holder has all the value. In my opinion, that is not coin collecting, but holder collecting. The only way I will ever view modern collecting as serious is when the collector will, without hesitation, crack out a high grade modern and have no worries. I have yet to see this, however, for classics, it happens all the time.

TRUTH

 

That's right the modern markets are no more real than the fake coins. Once they took the silver out of the coins there's simply no reason to collect them and the only reason to have them is to fill plastic that can be sold for enormous amounts of cash to ever greater fools.

 

When was the last time you saw one of those cracked out classics sell raw. It's the same with cracked out moderns; they get sent in for a higher grade or they are added to a collection, but when coins get sold they sell in plastic usually.

[James_OldeTowne]

((( I think ther are very few "true collectors". )))

 

I agree 100% with this statement, and said it countless times myself.

 

It's too bad, too.

 

James

[jom]

Who should care if I want to continue my "modern" coin collection from a kid?

We all enjoy the same hobby...coin collecting. Hello---THEY STILL MAKE COINS.

THEY STILL MAKE HOLDERS TO C-O-L-L-E-C-T THEM IN.

 

Most here would agree completely the problem is that this thread has NOTHING to do with putting anyone down. TRUTH was simply noting (his opinion) that many of these "modern" coins, especially slab designated full whatever coins, are not GOOD INVESTMENTS.

 

This Jefferson nickel example reminds me of that 53-S FBL Franklin someone took a bath on a few years ago. A 50% loss as I recall.

 

I agree with the FH's on SLQ's too. I find it ridiculous that anyone would pay those premiums. Sure...a premium is OK for a better strike but 10X in some cases? That is absurd.

 

But if people want to pay those prices and they have fun doing it...by all means. Hopefully, I can find some "just make it" FH's to dump on some unfortunate collectors.

 

Someone who fills albums with raw coins, buys some slabbed coins, but in the end is not worried anout the future value of the coins they buy.

 

Am I a true collector? I don't care all that much about what my coins are worth so am I special? I only care for such when I'm trying to sell but even then...it isn't often. Hell, I haven't even lined the pockets of PCGS for at least 3 years now if memory serves.

 

Oh...wait...I usually only by slabbed coins. Oh well, there goes my "true collector" (TC) designation.

 

 

jom - TC

[gmarguli]

I think ther are very few "true collectors". My definition of "true collector" is someone who collects coins for the enjoyment of it. Someone who fills albums with raw coins, buys some slabbed coins, but in the end is not worried anout the future value of the coins they buy.

 

I'm not ridiculing what others colelct or do with their money, just saying that if you are worried about future value, then it's not a hobby. JMHO

 

 

I disagree a little. I collect coins as a hobby. However, I spend a fair amount of money on this hobby and there is quite a bit of value in my collection. While I collect because I enjoy several aspects of this hobby, if the value weren't going to be there later on, I wouldn't do it. The investing aspect is always part of the hobby.

[TerrapinWill]

<<The investing aspect is always part of the hobby. >>

 

as I said, I don't mean to put down what people do with their money. I was just referring to this being a hobby, not unlike golf, skiing, going to sporting events. Once the event is expensed and enjoyed, that's it.

 

Admittedly, I am not drawn to expensive material..in fact I have never paid nore than $75 fo a coin. So I can afford to have the position I have forwarded here.

As for "investing", I think it's a loosing strategy, and only the most skilled will do well over time. JMHO

[gmarguli]

<<The investing aspect is always part of the hobby. >>

 

as I said, I don't mean to put down what people do with their money. I was just referring to this being a hobby, not unlike golf, skiing, going to sporting events. Once the event is expensed and enjoyed, that's it.

 

Admittedly, I am not drawn to expensive material..in fact I have never paid nore than $75 fo a coin. So I can afford to have the position I have forwarded here.

As for "investing", I think it's a loosing strategy, and only the most skilled will do well over time. JMHO

 

 

I view stuff like golf and skiing as entertainment. You go into that knowing that at the end of the day you will have no tangible value. With collecting, you have purchased something of value and you will hope it will hold or increase it's value. You may purchase it because you like it, but you still hope that it holds its value.

 

I used to not care about the value of my collection as I figured I had no expectation to sell it. However, it becomes a concern when you start amassing more and more coins and the value of your collection keeps rising.

[TerrapinWill]

<<I view stuff like golf and skiing as entertainment. You go into that knowing that at the end of the day you will have no tangible value. With collecting, you have purchased something of value and you will hope it will hold or increase it's value. You may purchase it because you like it, but you still hope that it holds its value.

 

I used to not care about the value of my collection as I figured I had no expectation to sell it. However, it becomes a concern when you start amassing more and more coins and the value of your collection keeps rising. >>

 

I can see that as well. I just consider any hobby as entertainment. I guess I just collect differently (not better) than most. I might have 30-40 holdered coins, all basically widgets. Will they hold their value, who knows, I bought them like I would by a dvd, or a computer game or a round of golf, or a ski pass..because I enjoy them. If I get 50-75% of what I paid if ever I sell them...then I paid a fair price for entertainment, which the coins provide. Not the only way, just my way.

[DonHeath]

This coin is a perfect example of why high grade moderns with mintages in the zillions are not a good long term investment.

 

I'm not crazy about strike designations either, but to be a perfect example why they aren't a good long-term investment, wouldn't the seller have to have owned it for more than a few months?

[gmarguli]

This coin is a perfect example of why high grade moderns with mintages in the zillions are not a good long term investment.

 

I'm not crazy about strike designations either, but to be a perfect example why they aren't a good long-term investment, wouldn't the seller have to have owned it for more than a few months?

 

That is long term in Registry World. Sadly, (cough) great (cough) collections* are started, completed, and sold in a very short period of time.

 

*Collections meaning the modern registry version of a collection AKA a single set.

[DonHeath]

Yeah, I think that's interesting. I think part of that is the daytrader mindset, but I don't know if it only affects moderns.

[Hoot]

Yeah, I think that's interesting. I think part of that is the daytrader mindset, but I don't know if it only affects moderns.

 

Definitely not simply a "moderns" phenomenon. It's the worst part of the hobby nowadays.

 

On the issue of an FS Jeff going for 32 grand then 11 grand, I think it's a sad remark of how trendy coins can be in this market. One series is hot, then another, then another. (Jeffersons, especially FS pieces, were hot a little while back, but now they appear to have slumped significantly in value.) The persistence of interest among collectors for a given series is about the duration that producers of most TV sitcoms are looking for. I think that ultimately, this remarks of an incredible immaturity of a greatly expanded collector base that is as recent as the State Quarters phenomenon. As these collectors "grow up," they will settle into a pattern that is more consistent and discernible. Coins such as the 1960-D FS Jeff will be better known and understood in relationship to the rest of the series, and its value will adjust to the collector base that is better weathered with time, long-term interest, and study. Be assured, however, that fanatical FS collectors will still be out there with little but competition on their minds and wallets to back them.

 

Personally, I think that the 1960-D FS Jeff cannot be as valuable as the great rarity of the series, the 1964 SMS pieces (about 10-20 known). But that issue is little known, even among Jefferson nickel collectors, and a matter for those who study the series closely. However, the simple-minded counter-argument is that there may only be ONE '60-D with recognizably attributable FS. Yet, my equally simple reply is that the attribution ignores the rest of the coin, as many others have said.

 

I'd pay "good money" for a '60-D with an excellent strike and excellent surface preservation, and it would not be the one currently attributed FS.

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

I think ther are very few "true collectors". My definition of "true collector" is someone who collects coins for the enjoyment of it. Someone who fills albums with raw coins, buys some slabbed coins, but in the end is not worried anout the future value of the coins they buy.

 

I'm not ridiculing what others colelct or do with their money, just saying that if you are worried about future value, then it's not a hobby. JMHO

 

 

I disagree a little. I collect coins as a hobby. However, I spend a fair amount of money on this hobby and there is quite a bit of value in my collection. While I collect because I enjoy several aspects of this hobby, if the value weren't going to be there later on, I wouldn't do it. The investing aspect is always part of the hobby.

 

 

As it should be. A man who throws his money into the wind regardless of the consequences is a foolish person indeed.

[jom]

WIth the internet and the ease that one can sell coins now the "day trader" mentality is at an all-time high. For some reason collectors (or the newer ones) think that this is "investing" when in fact they are really only (and I hate to use this term) wanna-be dealers.

 

Of course, this doesn't always hold for people who collect "moderns". Recently there was a collector who pretty much bought his whole gold set at ONE auction so as to complete a Registry set. Now how can one call this "collecting"? Not only did they certainly pay WAY too much there was no seeking the best possible coin for the grade and price. There was no "thrill of the hunt". No cherry-picking. THAT is what I would call "collecting" not someone who can just show up and whip out their check book.

 

jom

[TerrapinWill]

I know that this goes against the grain, but I hear so much about "Ebay rips", "submitting until the grade is right", and other such profit motivated stories, it makes me wonder, what is collecting?

 

I wish anyone who attempts to buy and flip for profit the best of luck, but that sure seems like a part time job, rather than a hobby.

 

I wonder hopw many colectors really view this strictly as a hobby, and worry little about what their coins will be worth in 5 or 30 years.

[AlixTCat]

I can see that as well. I just consider any hobby as entertainment. I guess I just collect differently (not better) than most. I might have 30-40 holdered coins, all basically widgets. Will they hold their value, who knows, I bought them like I would by a dvd, or a computer game or a round of golf, or a ski pass..because I enjoy them. If I get 50-75% of what I paid if ever I sell them...then I paid a fair price for entertainment, which the coins provide. Not the only way, just my way.

 

I agree. Just the thrill of going to the mailbox and pulling out a box... the anticipation of opening it and holding the coin I bought in my own hand. That is worth the price of admission. I really enjoy getting certain coins out and looking at them over and over. I probably overpaid on some coins. I probably underpaid on other coins. In the end, when I die, I told my wife to do a search for them on eBay and sell them for what they're worth, whatever that may be. I don't want her looking at my spreadsheet that tells how much I paid for them, just the going rate and then sell them. But, hopefully, we'll die together in our sleep.

For me, coin collecting is just plain fun. I've lost more money on the hobby than I have made, but just like a ski pass, it is fun while it lasted.

 

Jonathan

[TerrapinWill]

But, hopefully, we'll die together in our sleep.

 

When I die I want to die in my sleep, just like my unlce. And not like those poor folks on the bus he was driving!

[John Martinez]

Having re-aquired a childhood interest, I'm sure I'm going to make mistakes. That said, I have read several books and with your kind help here, know what the tell tale signs of a rip off are, so hopefully my "schooling" does not cost me as much as going into this blind.

 

Do I hope my collection increase in value? Yes. Is that my motivation for my collection. No. It is the enjoyment of learning somethin new. It is the pleasure of the hunt. It is the pleasure of holding a thing of beauty in your hand. It is relaxing to me to pull out my coins and study them. It is a relaxing to me to go through my daughter's change (she is a waitress) to see what's there...and found some interesting stuff.

 

I've got another hobby. I have a show vehicle. While there are muscle cars being sold to investors at unheard of pricing, the real value in my show Jeep is that, like coins, it is relaxing to save my pennies for another part, and put it on myself. It is the pleasure of someone drooling over it at a car show, or waving to me on the street. I guess some coin collectors are in the same boat as me and my show Jeep. Jeep stands for "Just Empty Every Pocket".

 

In closing, don't get me wrong. If someone wants to get into either of my hobbies for investment purposes, that's fine with me. It's their money.