What will happen to Michael

[IGWT]

Read Michael's post in this thread across the street (quick, before it's deleted) and the responses that follow. What do you think will happen? No matter the result, I'm very glad that he's with us here.

[toyonakataro]

Not sure.

But I think Mr. Hall's attitude toword customers(I think we are all customers) are far from being professional.

[TomB]

I find the behavior of DH on the boards to be one of the worst aspects of the boards.

[supertooth]

IGWT------As with most folks on both boards, you know them by what they say. A few of you may know one another personally but a guy like me only gets a "feeling" about people. In Michael's case, I see a very knowledgable person. He speaks his mind. He gives great advice. Always helpful. Like others, I read his threads with much interest. And, in most situations, I usually agree with him. As with other things about the TPGS, I do believe that they do have their favorites. I was told once---by a reliable source---that a "big" submitter out of Texas was dissatisfied with grades from PCGS. They held out submissions [totalling 30,000 coins per month]. Grades improved the following month. Granted, I cannot prove this statement. But---take it for what it's worth. Ask anyone about 'cleaned' coins in TPGS holders. Neither PCGS, or NGC, or some others admit that they slab these coins on a regular basis. I read it nowhere where they say that they do this. Yet, many of us see coins that are cleaned in these holders. I, for one, would attest to the 1921S Walkers in holders that should not be there. Coins that are "purposely" let slide by---why?---because of their value and rarity----and maybe other reasons as well. Who knows? Yet they are there. And more than just a few. So, if Michael believes that PCGS plays favorites, I am inclined to believe that he believes that this is true. Proving it in a court of law might be another thing. My own thoughts are that I would not put it past them. Yet proving it is beyond my ability. So, it will remain as conjecture and not gospel truth. I am sure that Michael knows more than I do in any regard. Just think of one word---MONEY---and then ask yourselves if some favoritism is not expected and probably given. Bob [supertooth]

[jom]

When Michael talks I listen

 

When HRH talks I

 

jom

[HaydenTubbs]

Well there isn't really anything, anyone here or on the PCGS boards would be able to prove about TPG's handing out favors but it's most likely true and I wouldn't be suprised if all TPG's do this. After all you certainly wouldn't want to offend a customer who submitted 30k coins a month.So what if they bump of the grades a little? There is no legal implications,moral yes; but...we won't go there. I personally doubt that it's an actual agreement between the two parties involved but I'm sure each end makes their wants know although not directly.If the 30k a month submitter started complaining about his grades and all of a sudden stopped submitting I'm sure he would get his message across Mr. Hall quite clearly.Who really knows what goes on between the big boys? Maybe they do actually come to agreements,maybe they don't;maybe I'm just blabbing!

 

Fact is PCGS,NGC,etc. are all companies with the purpose of making money for their owners.Their very existence is for this sole intent,naturally they will do all they can to get more of it.Just because these companies grade coins doesn't make them any different than WorldCom or any other company.Face the facts.

 

Sorry for my mindless drivel,but as to the orginal question of Michael well-being: I should guess that he will be spending much more time over here starting as of today...

 

 

-Hayden

[IGWT]

I detest HRH's approach on the PCGS boards. His ultimatum to Michael is both heavy-handed and, at its core, inconsistent. PCGS has stated many times that grading is subjective. Michael can't "prove" his proposition for the simple reason that grades are subjective. He might point to a particular set of coins and judge them to be overgraded; but HRH will simply respond by saying that they're graded correctly. For the same reason, HRH can't "prove" that Michael "lied." In fact, HRH can't prove that Michael "lied" unless he first concedes that grading is objective.

 

Bob expresses many of my thoughts very well.

 

Lou

[HaydenTubbs]

I detest HRH's approach on the PCGS boards. His ultimatum to Michael is both heavy-handed and, at its core, inconsistent. PCGS has stated many times that grading is subjective. Michael can't "prove" his proposition for the simple reason that grades are subjective. He might point to a particular set of coins and judge them to be overgraded; but HRH will simply respond by saying that they're graded correctly. For the same reason, HRH can't "prove" that Michael "lied." In fact, HRH can't prove that Michael "lied" unless he first concedes that grading is objective.

 

 

 

I thought hobbies were supposed to help you relax!

[IGWT]

I thought hobbies were supposed to help you relax!

 

Believe it or not, Hayden, the PCGS and NGC forums are just an incidental part of the hobby. They're not the hobby itself.

[HaydenTubbs]

I thought hobbies were supposed to help you relax!

 

Believe it or not, Hayden, the PCGS and NGC forums are just an incidental part of the hobby. They're not the hobby itself.

 

 

Yes,I know that...it's just that these boards are so enjoyable yet so agrivating! You could never totally zone yourself out from the problems in this hobby though.It would ultimately affect you no matter what you did.

 

But I do enjoy coincollecting very much,it's just the fellow collectors and dealers that push my buttons!

[midwest]

He will retract his statement has a vote

 

If anything he is likely to call David Hall some sort of animal turd. Just my guess but who knows.

[HaydenTubbs]

He will retract his statement has a vote

 

If anything he is likely to call David Hall some sort of animal turd. Just my guess but who knows.

 

Well,personally if he already hasn't been banned it will probably be something much worse than animal turd!

[supertooth]

Thanks IGWT [Lou]----We seem to pretty much think alike----Hope this means we are right most of the time? Now Hayden----One must collect coins because he or she enjoys the hobby. If we get upset at the things that are wrong in our hobby, that's OK. But, remember, you cannot make people be moral and good. You can hope that they will be honest----it is a noble goal for all of us. But greed and money and power will affect people in many ways. But my point is that----if you are educated in the hobby----if you know your coins---if you stay within your areas of expertise---then you can 'sort of control' how the hobby affects you personally. You can avoid the squabbles by letting your knowledge take you above the fray. You will get fooled less if your education is superior. You will be even smarter if you are smart enough to stay out of areas that are not part of your knowledge bank. Old saying----Do not worry about things that you cannot fix. Worry about and fix only what you can control. Boy----I should listen to my own advice. Bob [supertooth]

[HaydenTubbs]

Thanks IGWT [Lou]----We seem to pretty much think alike----Hope this means we are right most of the time? Now Hayden----One must collect coins because he or she enjoys the hobby. If we get upset at the things that are wrong in our hobby, that's OK. But, remember, you cannot make people be moral and good. You can hope that they will be honest----it is a noble goal for all of us. But greed and money and power will affect people in many ways. But my point is that----if you are educated in the hobby----if you know your coins---if you stay within your areas of expertise---then you can 'sort of control' how the hobby affects you personally. You can avoid the squabbles by letting your knowledge take you above the fray. You will get fooled less if your education is superior. You will be even smarter if you are smart enough to stay out of areas that are not part of your knowledge bank. Old saying----Do not worry about things that you cannot fix. Worry about and fix only what you can control. Boy----I should listen to my own advice. Bob [supertooth]

 

Thanks for the advice Bob,can't agree with you more.Sometimes though I just get a little ticked off at fellow coin folk. I'm sure it would do me good to hold my tongue more often.

[truthteller]

Michael has a good heart, is very knowlegdeable about coins and gives an honest opinion. Many of the good people are gone from the PCGS boards. This was a perfect example of an uncalled for powerplay.

 

 

 

TRUTH

[rexcat]

Hey guys! Lots of good replies in this thread, here are a few I couldn't agree with more.(but not to sound like DH's moonies that always chime in after DH blesses the masses with his all knowing words. )

 

Not sure.

But I think Mr. Hall's attitude toword customers(I think we are all customers) are far from being professional

 

 

I find the behavior of DH on the boards to be one of the worst aspects of the boards.

 

 

When Michael talks I listen

When HRH talks I

 

 

Michael has a good heart, is very knowlegdeable about coins and gives an honest opinion. Many of the good people are gone from the PCGS boards. This was a perfect example of an uncalled for powerplay.

 

If anything he is likely to call David Hall some sort of animal turd. Just my guess but who knows.

 

Or maybe a turd eating dog?

 

Just my 2 two cents worth about your two cents worth

[JamminJ]

Michael has a good heart, is very knowlegdeable about coins and gives an honest opinion. Many of the good people are gone from the PCGS boards. This was a perfect example of an uncalled for powerplay.

 

TRUTH

 

You know its the coin forum when I agree with Truth 100%.

[jom]

His ultimatum to Michael is both heavy-handed and, at its core, inconsistent.

 

Much like their grading....

 

jom

[HaydenTubbs]

His ultimatum to Michael is both heavy-handed and, at its core, inconsistent.

 

Much like their grading....

 

jom

 

Sad but true...

[Hoot]

He will retract his statement

He will prove his statement

He will be removed from the boards

 

None of the above. He'll simply continue to post his opinion and that'll be that.

 

Hoot

[EZ_E]

He will retract his statement

He will prove his statement

He will be removed from the boards

 

None of the above. He'll simply continue to post his opinion and that'll be that.

 

Hoot

 

I, too, thought that there should have been a fourth option.

 

 

But my point is that----if you are educated in the hobby----if you know your coins---if you stay within your areas of expertise---then you can 'sort of control' how the hobby affects you personally. You can avoid the squabbles by letting your knowledge take you above the fray. You will get fooled less if your education is superior. You will be even smarter if you are smart enough to stay out of areas that are not part of your knowledge bank.

 

[ArtR]

Michael, I think you may have hit a sore spot.

[James_OldeTowne]

sometimes Do major bulk modern submitters get a break at PCGS?

 

yes

 

and if they complain enough to pcgs they sometimes even get more of a break

 

someone on this thread is speaking with forked tongue (michael)

 

Michael,

 

You just stated that major bulk submitters get a break in terms of grade at PCGS. I am at PCGS every day and know for a fact that the graders do not know whose coins they are grading. You have lied about our company. This is not acceptable. Prove your statement or leave the board.

 

David Hall

 

The funny thing is, I have heard a tape recording of David Hall basically admitting this very thing (that certain parties get "breaks").

 

Michael, I agree with you completely, and am glad you had the guts to say what had to be said.

 

James

[braddick]

Unfortunutely, I can't agree with the majority here on this single issue. I want too, and I read everyone's reply here and go over it in my mind, but the bottom line for me is when you make a blanket statement regarding a business, such as Michael did toward PCGS- that impacts negatively, it should be backed up with an example of some type of "proof".

 

If not, then it smacks of being a poor sport and/or holding a personal grudge against the business that unexplained can do damage- especially if the complainer is as respected as Michael is in the collecting community.

 

See, if it was one or two other posters/members on that forum- the ones that feel a need to post to everything and anything, every few minutes, 14 hours a day, day in and day out, (holidays included! ), David Hall would probably not care less. They may disparage PCGS and really, it's like the tree falling in the forest with no one around to hear it...

When it is someone that has credibility, such as Michael, then asking (no, 'requiring') that member to "prove it" (or, at least attempt to) is fair play.

 

It is too bad that it seems the only time Mr. Hall chooses to come forward and post on his forum is in defense of PCGS, but it is PCGS's forum and before someone declares fraud and dishonesty (that really is the core of the post) toward PCGS be prepared to back that claim up.

 

I read it like, "don't come over for dinner and defecate all over the dinning room table and then be expecting an invitation to come back".

[jtryka]

I find all this fine speculation on Michael's thoughts and likely responses entertaining, but ultimately pointless. We have two threads with 5 pages of replies, and michael made one post of 38 words, yet there's been thousands of words of speculation about what Michael said. This is worse that the pundits who try to decipher Greenspan!

 

The important thing for me, is that this thread was just another friendly reminder of why I left the PCGS boards two years ago and never looked back.

[chinook]

He will retract his statement

He will prove his statement

He will be removed from the boards

 

None of the above. He'll simply continue to post his opinion and that'll be that.

 

Hoot

 

I agree.

 

I do not think it is up to Michael to prove anything. There is a "belief" that this is true. Whenever money is involved, games are played. Thats the bottom line, plain and simple.

[supertooth]

I have an 87 year old aunt---an honest, decent, and Christian woman. Knows right from wrong and believes that 'all' men can be fine and upstanding citizens. She soooo wants to believe in the good of humankind that, when confronted with the opposite, she chooses to forgive the fault out of hand. She wants God to declare fault. Only He can punish. I guess there are collectors who blindly 'trust' the TPGS and their holders that same way. Certainly they are not affected by the pressures of money or bosses or greed. They would never make a mistake intentionally nor would they keep quiet if they saw others cheating. They would never give 'favors' or risk their integrity in any way. Those who say this are looking at the slabs with "Rose Colored Glasses". It cannot be hidden by the subjectivity of grading. These 'mistakes' are not a function of independant graders. These "Errors" are unwritten and are considered the 'price' of doing business. And it is protected by their own code of silence----backed up by a written agreement of "Silence". How convenient!! Now, do I believe that the system is always wrought with mistakes? No, of course not. But do I believe that they leave themselves some wiggle room to play with----Yes, I certainly do. I believe that the guy who has a small number of coins in a submission----gets the lower end of the grading on his coins----leaves room for resubmissions. The guy who submits hundreds of coins---well---he gets a break every so many pieces. Or just gets the high end of the grading when the graders have a 'Liner" in hand. You rub my back and I'll do the same for you. Michael has, in effect, said that this is how he sees it. But, like I said earlier, it is not something that probably can be proven. Certainly not to the total satisfaction of everyone. But it is there for all to see. Just look at the 21S Walkers in the higher graded slabs. For every truly nice coin there must be a half dozen that I would not take home. For every truly 'original' coin there must be 10 that have been messed with in some way. The TPGS people are slabbing [where convenient] by their own invention of the words 'market acceptable'. Not by the standards of 'originality' that they advertise. Would be nice if Michael would come on here to comment on all the responses that his words have created. Bob [supertooth]

[braddick]

 

Master Collector

 

Posts: 9687

Joined: Apr 2001

Thursday December 01, 2005 2:14 PM

 

 

 

sometimes Do major bulk modern submitters get a break at PCGS?

 

 

yes

 

and if they complain enough to pcgs they sometimes even get more of a break

 

someone on this thread is speaking with forked tongue

____________________________________

 

Jom,

What is not clear regardling this statement?

[IGWT]

I, too, thought that there should have been a fourth option.

 

Sorry, guys. I tried to edit the poll but could not. Still, I find the comments interesting.

[IGWT]

sometimes Do major bulk modern submitters get a break at PCGS?

 

 

yes

 

and if they complain enough to pcgs they sometimes even get more of a break

 

someone on this thread is speaking with forked tongue

 

Braddick --

 

Are you posting Michael's original message for our convenience or to indicate your agreement with him?